VOY: Lineage

[clearspira]

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.[...]No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to.

Kind of a late reply, but, ah...I'm really not sure this is the kind of legal precedent you'd want to establish.

Especially worse with the level of "permanent damage" that could be technically averted with 24th century medical technology. "Sure, Ensign Wildman was brutally assaulted in every way by her boyfriend, but...the Doctor just healed all the damage, and she doesn't actually remember most of the incident, anyway, so why make a deal out of it? You'd be damaging a promising young lieutenant's career—and we have the local image of Starfleet to uphold. No one really has to know..."

Wow, I haven't been on this forum in months.

Again, should the Doctor have been put in the Brig for nearly killing a man in Darkling? This was while he was also sexually assaulting B'elanna and attempting to kidnap Kes. Because that's something that happened. Precedent is already kind of set there if the Doctor is a member of the crew. How about the time Paris kidnapped and raped Janeway in Threshold? The time Neelix hijacked the transporter to try and kill himself in Mortal Coil? Etc.

You either have to have every single thing the crew did over their 7 years reported and reviewed, or you cut them complete slack because they're trying to survive on their own in a high stress environment, or try and find some compromise between the two so that you can have a functioning starship crew.

My honest opinion is that I would have restored the Doctor to his factory settings for that. The Voyager crew cannot do without the EMH, but he deserved to be punished for attempted murder, kidnap, sexual assault and sabotage.

I do not buy that he is ''alive'' in the sense of him being a free-thinking sapient being and I never have. He is merely a program designed to adapt that has been running too long. Besides a bedside manner, can you honestly tell me anything the VOY crew have gained by allowing the Doctor to grow? Lets see: he loses his mind so badly at one point that they had to erase a woman from history, he tried to steal the ship, he betrayed the crew for a group of psychotic holograms, he stole Seven's body, he let his personal feelings get in the way of a rape case so badly that the guy in question killed himself instead of being captured, he soiled Voyager's image with fanfiction and... oh yes... Equinox.

Lets look at Equinox shall we? Where removing his ethical subroutines turned him into Dr Mengele. No fighting it, no hesitation, no noticing something was wrong, he just went along with it. On the contrary - he was having a great old time of it! Singing and jigging and rewiring Seven's brain so that she could sing along with him. Not even Phlox ever reached this level and he killed off an entire species by withholding the cure.

If you are ''alive'' it should take more than flicking a switch to force you to start cutting up the woman that you regularly fantasise about naked:

[Madner Kami]

Lets look at Equinox shall we? Where removing his ethical subroutines turned him into Dr Mengele. No fighting it, no hesitation, no noticing something was wrong, he just went along with it. On the contrary - he was having a great old time of it! Singing and jigging and rewiring Seven's brain so that she could sing along with him. Not even Phlox ever reached this level and he killed off an entire species by withholding the cure.

If you are ''alive'' it should take more than flicking a switch to force you to start cutting up the woman that you regularly fantasise about naked:

You've heard of Phineas Gage and other, similar stories? Futzing with someone's head, literally removing parts of it, messes with them in ways you can't even begin to imagine. That particular happening in Equinox, was eerily human.

I do not buy that he is ''alive'' in the sense of him being a free-thinking sapient being and I never have.

That's your perogative and your decissions are quite unpleasent. Just like with any death-sentence, I'd err on the side of caution. That you don't, is alarming.

[clearspira]

I do not buy that he is ''alive'' in the sense of him being a free-thinking sapient being and I never have.

That's your perogative and your decissions are quite unpleasent. Just like with any death-sentence, I'd err on the side of caution. That you don't, is alarming.

Chuck has argued many times that holograms on the holodeck are not alive. I'm just going one very minute step forward and covering the Doctor in that.

PS You do know that the Doctor is fictional? As in, ''not real''? As in, ''no one is actually being hurt by anything I say''? Frankly, anyone who wants to get that pissy about a fictional person from 25 years ago that's their problem. They need to actually get a real life and stop basing so much of their self worth on a product made by a corporation that doesn't give a shit about them.

And before anyone wants to bring up any of my past comments: I agree. That does describe me from a few years ago. The more time goes on, and the more all of my favourite franchises get further and further away from how they were, I really have started to realise just how silly it all was. Why do you think that I so rarely comment on the new episodes of Star Trek anymore?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

H should stand for human imo

[FaxModem1]

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.[...]No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to.

Kind of a late reply, but, ah...I'm really not sure this is the kind of legal precedent you'd want to establish.

Especially worse with the level of "permanent damage" that could be technically averted with 24th century medical technology. "Sure, Ensign Wildman was brutally assaulted in every way by her boyfriend, but...the Doctor just healed all the damage, and she doesn't actually remember most of the incident, anyway, so why make a deal out of it? You'd be damaging a promising young lieutenant's career—and we have the local image of Starfleet to uphold. No one really has to know..."

I agree. This is basically assaulting an officer. Doesn't matter if no damage was done.

Now even in today's military some things are brushed under the rug but for the most part you don't do certain things like what she did.

Voyager should have been more progressive in that respect. The Doctor became a sentient person. Any alteration without his approval should have dire consequences.

Authority figures, such as courts and COs, prefer that they aren't dragged into private affairs. If it can be resolved outside of a court room or the brig, all the better. The Doctor and B'elanna made up and if nothing else, their friendship became stronger as he became her first child's godfather.

We have past precedent of stuff like this. Neelix and Tom Paris were physically fighting in the Mess Hall once, actually coming to blows, and Janeway told them to solve it. This is a similar scenario, two crew members have beef with each other, and eventually come to terms.

[McAvoy]

No permanent damage was done to the child or the Doctor, so it was allowed to be off her record. And I can understand why no one wanted to really press the issue.[...]No one outside the ship was affected at all, and no one inside the ship was really affected by it. You could chalk it up to a domestic dispute if you wanted to.

Kind of a late reply, but, ah...I'm really not sure this is the kind of legal precedent you'd want to establish.

Especially worse with the level of "permanent damage" that could be technically averted with 24th century medical technology. "Sure, Ensign Wildman was brutally assaulted in every way by her boyfriend, but...the Doctor just healed all the damage, and she doesn't actually remember most of the incident, anyway, so why make a deal out of it? You'd be damaging a promising young lieutenant's career—and we have the local image of Starfleet to uphold. No one really has to know..."

I agree. This is basically assaulting an officer. Doesn't matter if no damage was done.

Now even in today's military some things are brushed under the rug but for the most part you don't do certain things like what she did.

Voyager should have been more progressive in that respect. The Doctor became a sentient person. Any alteration without his approval should have dire consequences.

Authority figures, such as courts and COs, prefer that they aren't dragged into private affairs. If it can be resolved outside of a court room or the brig, all the better. The Doctor and B'elanna made up and if nothing else, their friendship became stronger as he became her first child's godfather.

We have past precedent of stuff like this. Neelix and Tom Paris were physically fighting in the Mess Hall once, actually coming to blows, and Janeway told them to solve it. This is a similar scenario, two crew members have beef with each other, and eventually come to terms.

I was in the military. Personal affairs only count when we are talking about things that can be handled at the lowest rank possible before it rolls uphill.

For example, roommate hasn't paid his half of the rent or bills for six months and used his money on alcohol. The higher ups don't need to be involved. Both enlisted go see their Chiefs and get it resolved.

For example, a enlisted person set the smoking gazebo on fire due to some drunk shenanigans. Enlisted man goes to Master Chief to find out if it was an accident or not.

For example, drunk wife of enlisted is found passed out on the base housing lawn butt naked. She has drugs in her system and the enlisted man now has to do a drug test.

Or the other countless examples I can think of.

What was done to the Doctor was much more than a personal issue between two people. The Doctor practically got Star Treked into being brainwashed into doing something he normally wouldn't.

[Frustration]

Picard was never "held responsible" for the Federation ships that were destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359, drawing heavily on his expertise to do so. Because he wasn't considered responsible by Starfleet, although individual members obviously felt differently.

Messing with the Doctor's ethical subroutines isn't particularly different than the Borg messing with Picard's.

[McAvoy]

Picard was never "held responsible" for the Federation ships that were destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359, drawing heavily on his expertise to do so. Because he wasn't considered responsible by Starfleet, although individual members obviously felt differently.

Messing with the Doctor's ethical subroutines isn't particularly different than the Borg messing with Picard's.

Uhh B'Elanna Torres isn't the Borg. She is a Starfleet officer and can be disciplined. Unlike the Borg who are enemies of the Federation.

[clearspira]

Picard was never "held responsible" for the Federation ships that were destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359, drawing heavily on his expertise to do so. Because he wasn't considered responsible by Starfleet, although individual members obviously felt differently.

Messing with the Doctor's ethical subroutines isn't particularly different than the Borg messing with Picard's.

Here's the difference between the Doctor and Picard: Picard needed a whole episode to get over his mind rape whereby he ended up crying in the mud lamenting how he was struggling with every fibre of his being to resist but couldn't. And even many years later he is still deeply haunted by these events to the point that he has his own Moby Dick B-plot over it.

The Doctor forgot about it immediately. This is why the Doctor is an appliance and Picard is a living, breathing man.

[TGLS]

The Doctor forgot about it immediately. This is why the Doctor is an appliance and Picard is a living, breathing man.

I dunno. The show already took the zero-continuity approach for a long time. Practically everything gets forgotten immediately.