Tears of the Prophets

[Wargriffin]

Ya know the real question is how the Dominion built so many ship yards to build their fleets in just, what, half a year? I know a large fleet entered Cardassia, but the Dominion are DAMN FAST in building those ship yards.

The dominion run on RTS rules XD

[McAvoy]

Ya know the real question is how the Dominion built so many ship yards to build their fleets in just, what, half a year? I know a large fleet entered Cardassia, but the Dominion are DAMN FAST in building those ship yards.

Hah. When I was posting this I did think about posting my thoughts on this. Specifically the period between when they signed the alliance with the Cardassians and mining the Wormhole. Among other thoughts.

So here is my running theory. It was four months in between that time. There were convoys being made. Now you can make up numbers but you can safely assume that the number still had to be low enough before Starfleet and the Klingon said enough is enough even without mining the wormhole.

My guess is 20 total convoys. Each shouldn't number in the thousands but low hundreds. Maybe the first initial two or three could be large as we saw that was enough to drive the Klingon out of Cardassian space.

But you can also assume part of those convoys were not only warships but ships carrying supplies, such as shipyard parts, ship parts, cloning facilities etc. But if let's say each convoy numbered just 200 ships, 20 convoys would bring that fleet to 4000 ships in itself.

Then you assume that since Jem Hadar ships are small and easy to build. We could assume five ships a day after let's say even a month of setting up. That would bring Dominion ships by Call of Arms to let's say 4500 ships on top of the Cardassian fleet.

Cardassian space could be smaller. Klingon and Federation space is bigger. Took time for them to mobilize their entire fleet. For all we know between the Romulans entering the war and finally getting the reinforcements from the far reaches of each Federation and Klingon space, that they could form large enough fleets to at least fight one on one.

Combine that with raids and destruction of key facilities for the Dominion like shipyards or cloning facilities that was starting to limit what they could do, would equalize or bring the war to the Allies side.

That initially in the beginning of the war was in the Dominion's favor until the Klingons and Federation were starting to bring more ships into the fleet from the opposite side of their territory. Plus all of the missions to disrupt infrastructure of the Dominion and Cardassian. I can see where the war would turn around by the time of the Year of the Prophets.

[McAvoy]

Most of the ships we see die in combat, have been in the fight for more than a few minutes, so it's easy to assume, that their shields were severely weakend already.
Conversely, Cardassian shields are crap. TNG S4/E12 "The Wounded" has the Enterprise being engaged by a Galor-class. When being hit by the Cardassian beam weapons, we don't even get the usual bridge-rattling, while the Galor looses all shield power from a few short bursts of Enterprise's phaser array.

As for the real reason: Shields were not displayed for dramatic effect. It just looks/feels better that way.

There is a general concensus that the Cardassians were a tier or two lower than the other powers. That in even them becoming a major power was only a recent development, like they were let's say a minor power at the time of Kirk and crew in ST6 and they progressively got stronger due to non-interference from the Federation. Like the 2350's border war with the Cardassians was a minor war to the Federation. They didn't commit 100% of even 50% of resources to combat the Cardassians but the Cardassians did commit 90-100%.

The fact that a third of the Klingon fleet was able to cause massive havok to the Cardassians during and after the Way of the Warrior kinda shows this.

[Nobody700]

It actually perfectly shows how Cardassians rank when it comes to Bajor. To them, Bajor was vital to their industry and one of the biggest sources of income and power for them. While they had other races that served them, it's possible those races aren't like the ones Romulans and Klingons subjugate. Being weaker, Cardassia can scare them to serve them, but outright conquering them is not feasible or worth it. Thus, Bajor is their biggest indication of power.

Bajor to the Federation? Well... Sisko is awesome but the fact he was made commander when he was ready to quit and has been in a weird limbo with Starfleet suggests that they cared, but not TOO much. It took them half a season to get a security chief there... and like 2 minutes to fire him cause I think Odo kept planting cocaine in his bed. Than another year and a half for Eddington to come in... and he quit after planting cocaine in Sisko's bed. The main reason Bajor was a focus for them was the wormhole. That's not because the Federation sucks, its because they have DOZENS of other planets like Bajor to handle... and cause Bajor is far out of the Federations borders. Unlike how Eddington or Picard season 1 sees the Federation, they aren't an expansionist empire. They don't care about expanding their borders, just self improving. Really, if the Federation was more of an evil power, they would have REALLY focused on Bajor. A wormhole would be perfect for them to gain new resources, races, and a foothold in a way no one can plan for. But because the Federation, again, don't care about power... Bajor got it slow and lots of red tape caused by Winn.

[McAvoy]

It actually perfectly shows how Cardassians rank when it comes to Bajor. To them, Bajor was vital to their industry and one of the biggest sources of income and power for them. While they had other races that served them, it's possible those races aren't like the ones Romulans and Klingons subjugate. Being weaker, Cardassia can scare them to serve them, but outright conquering them is not feasible or worth it. Thus, Bajor is their biggest indication of power.

Bajor to the Federation? Well... Sisko is awesome but the fact he was made commander when he was ready to quit and has been in a weird limbo with Starfleet suggests that they cared, but not TOO much. It took them half a season to get a security chief there... and like 2 minutes to fire him cause I think Odo kept planting cocaine in his bed. Than another year and a half for Eddington to come in... and he quit after planting cocaine in Sisko's bed. The main reason Bajor was a focus for them was the wormhole. That's not because the Federation sucks, its because they have DOZENS of other planets like Bajor to handle... and cause Bajor is far out of the Federations borders. Unlike how Eddington or Picard season 1 sees the Federation, they aren't an expansionist empire. They don't care about expanding their borders, just self improving. Really, if the Federation was more of an evil power, they would have REALLY focused on Bajor. A wormhole would be perfect for them to gain new resources, races, and a foothold in a way no one can plan for. But because the Federation, again, don't care about power... Bajor got it slow and lots of red tape caused by Winn.

Perhaps. I am fuzzy on this but which species have we heard of that worked for Cardassians as opposed to working with Cardassians. As in one working for them versus working with them on some economical level.

But yeah them struggling to fully conquer Bajor could be an indication. But we also never really saw that with the Klingons or Romulans either. It's just assumed.

[Nobody700]

It actually perfectly shows how Cardassians rank when it comes to Bajor. To them, Bajor was vital to their industry and one of the biggest sources of income and power for them. While they had other races that served them, it's possible those races aren't like the ones Romulans and Klingons subjugate. Being weaker, Cardassia can scare them to serve them, but outright conquering them is not feasible or worth it. Thus, Bajor is their biggest indication of power.

Bajor to the Federation? Well... Sisko is awesome but the fact he was made commander when he was ready to quit and has been in a weird limbo with Starfleet suggests that they cared, but not TOO much. It took them half a season to get a security chief there... and like 2 minutes to fire him cause I think Odo kept planting cocaine in his bed. Than another year and a half for Eddington to come in... and he quit after planting cocaine in Sisko's bed. The main reason Bajor was a focus for them was the wormhole. That's not because the Federation sucks, its because they have DOZENS of other planets like Bajor to handle... and cause Bajor is far out of the Federations borders. Unlike how Eddington or Picard season 1 sees the Federation, they aren't an expansionist empire. They don't care about expanding their borders, just self improving. Really, if the Federation was more of an evil power, they would have REALLY focused on Bajor. A wormhole would be perfect for them to gain new resources, races, and a foothold in a way no one can plan for. But because the Federation, again, don't care about power... Bajor got it slow and lots of red tape caused by Winn.

Perhaps. I am fuzzy on this but which species have we heard of that worked for Cardassians as opposed to working with Cardassians. As in one working for them versus working with them on some economical level.

But yeah them struggling to fully conquer Bajor could be an indication. But we also never really saw that with the Klingons or Romulans either. It's just assumed.

I admit been a while so checked. Xepolite and Lissepians. They don't serve Cardassians but didn't feel like they were equals.

Too be fair... Star Trek is kinda goofy in that. They depict the Klingon and Romulan empires as just Klingons and Romulans... when that implies that hundreds of species combined into the Federations equal the Romulans alone... not exactly a good indicator for the Federation. I do wish we saw more of how Romulans control planets and that these planets rising up to overthrow Romulans after Romulus blew up is more why the Romulan empire fell, rather than how they actually fell... that apparently the entire empire NEEDED Romulus to function. With the Klingons, at least the loss of their homeworld was an economic disaster, and that they would become aggressive more than just... fall and die.

[McAvoy]

Star Trek while they have delved into Klingon culture as one dimensional it can be, was detailed second to Cardassians.

I mean it's obvouos they weren't trying to make a detailed work building that us nerds would like.

Its well understood that for the Klingon or the Romukans were to work was to have their own different races working for/with them for their respective Empires. In that for the Federation with 150 worlds plus colonies to have the Klingons or Romulans to be direct rivals would mean that their respective empires even if smaller could match the Federation.

So we assume that both Romulans and Klingons have conquered or protectorate worlds.

Overall to me the Federation just seems like a underperforming super power.

[clearspira]

Star Trek while they have delved into Klingon culture as one dimensional it can be, was detailed second to Cardassians.

I mean it's obvouos they weren't trying to make a detailed work building that us nerds would like.

Its well understood that for the Klingon or the Romukans were to work was to have their own different races working for/with them for their respective Empires. In that for the Federation with 150 worlds plus colonies to have the Klingons or Romulans to be direct rivals would mean that their respective empires even if smaller could match the Federation.

So we assume that both Romulans and Klingons have conquered or protectorate worlds.

Overall to me the Federation just seems like a underperforming super power.

Absolutely. The thing about the Federation is that they have the potential to be the strongest power in the galaxy and yet are too noble to ever become so.

See, in the Star Trek universe, blowing up a planet is a big deal. Glassing a planet not so much, but actually reducing one to rubble is a very rare ability. And yet thanks to the Genesis torpedo and the red matter (which we can thank Abrams for introducing such an absurd concept into the Prime universe) the Federation has the capability to turn every starship and even scout ship into a death star.

THEN factor in the fact that the Federation has adaptive capabilities that rival the Borg. If you have a weapon that kicks a Federation starship's ass, there is a 100% chance that in a matter of hours or weeks, that weapon will be completely nullified. Species 8472 bioships, the Breen's energy dampening weapon, pretty much every cloaking device ever, the Dominion's anti proton beams, chroniton warheads. If you fight the Feds you had better take out the lot of them in the first shot.

THEN factor in the fact that the Federation frequently and intentionally neuters itself in a variety of ways. Treaties that prevent cloaking, treaties that prevent subspace weapons, the Prime Directive, the Temporal Prime Directive, only firing when being fired upon, not building dedicated warships.

The Federation is ludicrous in just how dangerous and powerful that it is. But they are also generally very nice people. And as such, tend to happily settle for ''only'' being the equal of the Alpha Quadrant powers. Which is cool and all until an Outside Context Event like the Borg or the Dominion comes along and gives them a kick up the complacency.

[McAvoy]

Welcome back clearspira.

I agree. You can easily do a numbers game and make certain assumptions, you can easily reach the conclusion the Federation should have 100k ships easily. And even then that wouldn't begin to tap the potential of the vast resources.

They really do neuter themselves. Mono race or mono culture powers should have no chance to be a threat to the Federation as the Klingons or Romulans do.

[Durandal_1707]

See, in the Star Trek universe, blowing up a planet is a big deal. Glassing a planet not so much, but actually reducing one to rubble is a very rare ability. And yet thanks to the Genesis torpedo and the red matter (which we can thank Abrams for introducing such an absurd concept into the Prime universe) the Federation has the capability to turn every starship and even scout ship into a death star.

Really, though... so what? We have the ability to melt the Earth's crust with the nuclear weapons we have now. Kirk's Enterprise was more than capable of destroying all life on a planet if it wanted to... there's gotta be a point at which it doesn't matter after that. Once you've reduced a planet to a useless ball of magma, what military application does it serve to destroy it even more other than just showing off?

TBH, I have the same question about the nuclear arms race in the real world. "Oh no, we only have enough missiles to destroy the world 10 times over, and the other side has enough to do it 11 times over! We've gotta catch up!" Like... why?

The only thing that made the Genesis Torpedo stand out from the other weapons that every race has in ST is the fact that it could conceivably be used for actually constructive purposes.