Which Creative Decision Hurt the Star Wars Disney Sequel Trilogy the Most?

[hammerofglass]

The bombers are dumb but for me the film annoyed me even before that with Poe parking his fighter right in front of a capital ship to tell your momma jokes. Yes, they point that they should be launching fighters of their own, but that just makes them look even more incompetent and making your bad guy look that incompetent that early really undercuts any threat they might have for the rest of the film.

The First Order in general had a constant tone problem, and both directors did this, where they want us to take them seriously but also they want to have them do constant Spaceballs comedy bits about what losers they are.

[CharlesPhipps]

The bombers are dumb but for me the film annoyed me even before that with Poe parking his fighter right in front of a capital ship to tell your momma jokes. Yes, they point that they should be launching fighters of their own, but that just makes them look even more incompetent and making your bad guy look that incompetent that early really undercuts any threat they might have for the rest of the film.

The First Order in general had a constant tone problem, and both directors did this, where they want us to take them seriously but also they want to have them do constant Spaceballs comedy bits about what losers they are.

I think I said it best when I said that Disney got praised for Kylo Ren being an incel school shooting wannabe ISIS recruit that was perfect in his patheticness for the Modern Age.

And Disney panicked because they hadn't been going for any of that.

[McAvoy]

The bombers are dumb but for me the film annoyed me even before that with Poe parking his fighter right in front of a capital ship to tell your momma jokes. Yes, they point that they should be launching fighters of their own, but that just makes them look even more incompetent and making your bad guy look that incompetent that early really undercuts any threat they might have for the rest of the film.

The First Order in general had a constant tone problem, and both directors did this, where they want us to take them seriously but also they want to have them do constant Spaceballs comedy bits about what losers they are.

I think I said it best when I said that Disney got praised for Kylo Ren being an incel school shooting wannabe ISIS recruit that was perfect in his patheticness for the Modern Age.

And Disney panicked because they hadn't been going for any of that.

Well in a way he was a school shooter. Just with a lightsaber.

Honestly, the whole ST creatively hurt itself. Across the board. It would be simpler to find something that didn't hurt the Trilogy.

[Al-1701]

What hurt was there is no character for Rey. She does not work through anything. She learns nothing from others. It was like having her depend on someone else would make her weak and we cannot have that. Luke cannot teach her the ways of the Force, because she should not need him.

It makes her being the spine of the trilogy boring. Luke had to work through things. Luke had to learn from others. Luke had to depend on others. And it is in the third film where he is ready to apply what he learned.

Like, I had an idea for The Last Jedi. Luke sets up a test for Rey. There is a tidal pool with two cliffs overlooking it. Luke put a helmet with the blast shield down on Rey and then some of the keepers drop down ropes. Rey must trust the Force to guide her from rope to rope to the other side of the pool. Rey fails because she tries to guess. Dejected after a few attempts, Luke explains to her, if she cannot let go of being in constant control of everything, he cannot teach her further. The Dark Side preys on those who seek only to control. She asks if he ever did this test, and he explains his test was when he destroyed the first Death Star.

This is a sticking point for her. Being in control is a compulsion for her. She has had to depend on herself and only herself for so long. Those around her have only used her. Letting go is hard, like almost cutting off an arm or a foot. She eventually succeeds, and Luke begins her training.

[hammerofglass]

What hurt was there is no character for Rey. She does not work through anything. She learns nothing from others. It was like having her depend on someone else would make her weak and we cannot have that. Luke cannot teach her the ways of the Force, because she should not need him.

I actually disagree on that. I don't think the movies portayed her as not needing help or training, what they did is present everyone she tried to get help from or learn from as so useless that she was forced to do without. Like no wonder she was annoyed and frustrated in the third movie, she'd had to self-teach a difficult subject while also carrying Poe and Finn's useless butts on her back for years at that point.

Although "she's not awesome Luke just sucks" doesn't really make the movies better.

[phantom000]

What hurt was there is no character for Rey. She does not work through anything. She learns nothing from others. It was like having her depend on someone else would make her weak and we cannot have that. Luke cannot teach her the ways of the Force, because she should not need him.

I actually disagree on that. I don't think the movies portayed her as not needing help or training, what they did is present everyone she tried to get help from or learn from as so useless that she was forced to do without. Like no wonder she was annoyed and frustrated in the third movie, she'd had to self-teach a difficult subject while also carrying Poe and Finn's useless butts on her back for years at that point.

Although "she's not awesome Luke just sucks" doesn't really make the movies better.

I think they meant that the creators wanted Rey to not need any help from others because they were afraid it would make her look weak or passive or something. What's funny is that Leia had to be rescued in all three films of the original trilogy and yet no one saw her as weak or passive.

The Disney trilogy feels like it was made by a committee, decisions were dictated to the creators who had either no idea, or no interest, in how make them work. Bringing back Luke, Leia and Han are probably the worst examples of this because they aren't used in any meaningful way. You could replace each of them with an original character and you wouldn't have to change anything.

[Winter]

I think they meant that the creators wanted Rey to not need any help from others because they were afraid it would make her look weak or passive or something. What's funny is that Leia had to be rescued in all three films of the original trilogy and yet no one saw her as weak or passive.

Its even worse then that. Take at look at the main characters in the Original Trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy and the Thrawn Trilogy, they're all massive fuck ups. Luke wants to be the great hero of the story but through most of acts one and 2 of A New Hope he's being thrown around by outside forces (literally) beyond his control and when he goes to rescue the Princess she has to rescue him and his friends because these idiots didn't have a plan to get out after they got in. And most of Empire is him screwing up. It's not until Return of the Jedi that he is able to become a full blown badass and even then he nearly fails his final test and almost gives into the Dark Side.

Anakin is the symbol of fuck ups as he is unable to really achieve any of the goals he set out to accomplish. He failed to free his mother, failed to save her, failed to save his wife, fell to the Dark Side and lost all of his limbs and was burned alive.

And Mara is also an absolute fuck up just like her husband and father-in-law. The reason she's in this mess to begin with is because she failed to kill Luke in Return of the Jedi and spends most of the Trilogy either saving or needing the help of the man she hates. On top of that she's shown to be out-powered and outsmarted by those around her.

And yet none of these characters are seen as weak or pathetic. Mara is often regarded as one of the most badass characters in Star Wars, Anakin is seen as a tragic hero and the general view on Luke is one of the go to examples of Knight in Shining Armor that when TLJ deviated from that to make him more bitter and grim people got annoyed because they felt it was so out of character for him.

Rey, has none of that and I think the reason for that isn't because the Higherups wanted her to be seen as weak but because the people making these films didn't care about her.

I've brought up before my dislike of the scene in TLJ when we see Rey again after the Throne Room scene where she learned that her parents abandoned her for drinking money she's all smiles. Rey has had a pretty bad week at this point and yet it takes her about 20 minutes (off screen) to get over it and just be happy and cheery and blowing things up like there's nothing wrong: O Happy Day!

This is perhaps the best example of the filmmakers not giving a shit about the characters they created and being more interested in the OG characters and Kylo Ren. The other example is when Rian Johnson cut out the third lesson because he felt it wasn't important to the story even though it's a VITAL scene to explain why Rey does what she does but he cut it out because guilt tripping Chewie for eating meat is way more important to the plot.

I have to ask if the creators of these films don't care about the characters they why should I care?

[CharlesPhipps]

There's a lot of scenes that make it appear to me that they had ideas but then an executive panicked and had them changed....but barely.

* Hosnian Prime was probably originally Coruscant, which would make a lot more sense for "the galaxy completely collapses into anarchy."

* Poe originally dies in the scene where his X-wing explodes.

* Rey originally KILLS Chewbacca and this is what causes her to worry about being evil

* Threepio is originally dead for good.

[Nealithi]

I think they meant that the creators wanted Rey to not need any help from others because they were afraid it would make her look weak or passive or something. What's funny is that Leia had to be rescued in all three films of the original trilogy and yet no one saw her as weak or passive.

I just want to go over this part because it is interesting.

Leia had her itty bitty ship taken by a huge warship. She sent the plans away and fought Stormtroopers herself and killed one. Then got caught. Resisted interrogation, "highly resistant to the mind probe" Then lied about where the rebel base was. When broken from her cell she was not a clinging flower. She took a gun and made an escape route. Then worked with her rescuers even in combat to escape. At no point was she a load, more like a load bearing team member.

Second movie she remained at her post intending to die to give others a chance to escape. But she gets pulled out by Han. She grudgingly gives him props about having his moments. Then Han leads them to a city where her every instinct tells her to get out. Han kept placating her till it was too late. Being lead away she still tried to warn Luke of the trap. Once armed she is still fighting back. And she called the shots to rescue Luke in the end.

Her capture in Jabba's palace was deliberate and not a mistake on her part. Then she personally ended Jabba with the very chains he put on her. Then joins the fight on the main deck. She was not captured by the ewoks, she was invited to the village for being a warrior. All her friends got caught though.

Basically, saying she got caught is misleading. She was a fighter all the way through. Only needing help on occasion when facing an army.

[Winter]

There's a lot of scenes that make it appear to me that they had ideas but then an executive panicked and had them changed....but barely.

* Hosnian Prime was probably originally Coruscant, which would make a lot more sense for "the galaxy completely collapses into anarchy."

* Poe originally dies in the scene where his X-wing explodes.

* Rey originally KILLS Chewbacca and this is what causes her to worry about being evil

* Threepio is originally dead for good.

Here's another, I think Rey was suppose to have killed Kylo Ren in their final duel in Rise of Skywalker. And I don't mean she killed Kylo and saved Ben I mean I think she straight up killed him. Think about this what does Ben Solo actually do in the final act of the film? He kills a bunch of minions, gets his life forced sucked out by Palpatine, gets thrown out of the scene (literally), heals Rey and then dies.

The Knights of Ren are so pointless that I keep forgetting they're even in this film and they do nothing that couldn't have been done by regular Storm Troopers. All they do is capture Chewie and track the heroes, that's nothing special, anyone could have done that. Hell they could have just put a tracker on the Falcon while she was parked on Tatooine and achieved the same result (yes I know the planet isn't Tatooine but let's be honest it's totally Tatooine with a different name).

Also it would have given actual consequences for Rey's actions because she crosses a line by killing Kylo and now has an actual reason to fear falling to the Dark Side because she gave into her anger and now someone is dead which she didn't want. But instead they give her a way out and prove right away that she won't fall to the Dark Side because she undid her mistake and there is no real downside to her actions.