When a villain protagonist should be redeemed - Penguin vs. Catra vs. Dexter

[CharlesPhipps]

I'm reminded of the problem behind the scene with DEXTER between the showrunners. Essentially, the books are about Dexter as a Antihero and a Noble Demon. The showrunners had two very different takes on the character.

* Dexter was slowly becoming more human and the story would be how Rita and the kids allowed him to transcend being a monster.
* The showrunners who viewed Dexter as a vile Villain Protagonist who only cared about killing for its own sake and wanted him to be punished for what happened. They hated Rita because, essentially, she humanized Dexter.

The problem was the audience was squarely on Dexter's side and didn't want him to change or be punished.

This came up when discussing HARLEY QUINN the cartoon and how the fact that Harley makes real progress to being a better person and then suddenly zips down to burning down Metropolis with Darkseid and killing her friend before lying about it.

Basically, the question comes whether we should have characters who get redeemed when villainous antiheroes or not and what's the criteria. PENGUIN works because Oswald is, at the end of the day, an irredeemable monster and any charm he displays is part of the con. However, we have the Zukos and Catras as an alternative who may actually be not be villains at all so they don't need "much" redemption.

[Winter]

I think we need to address the Bantha and talk about Kylo Ren. Back when A New Hope was re-released and given a new cast and called The Force Awakens one thing that I mentioned to my sister at the time was how I didn't want Kylo Ren to be redeemed. One of the advantages about The Force Awakens being a sequel to the original trilogy is that little work needed to be done to get us emotionally invested in any of the older characters.

So when Han was in the role of Obi-Wan there was a LOT more connection between fans and the characters thanks to decades of stories from both the original trilogy, comics, novels and even a few games. Thus when it came time for Han to die there was more interest in many fans to see Kylo Ren to be damned as a villain. And one thing that I do like about The Last Jedi was it re enforcing this idea that Kylo was not going to be redeemed. That when Rey closed the door on him at the end of the film that was the last connection he had with anyone who would give him a chance because he burned his bridges. And to paraphrase from my favorite BioWare game "He stood in the fire and complained that it was hot."

Sure it left a bit of hope that Kylo could be redeemed but for the most part the film was like "No, he's not going back into the light."... And then Rise of Skywalker came out and gave him a "Redemption Arc" because this Trilogy keeps wasting its more original ideas in favor of redoing the classics.

Next to Rey this Trilogy was about Kylo and two films in a row and most of the third gave the impression he was going to remain a villain. All hints of him being redeemed were relegated to supplementary material and minor bits of dialogue that are easy to miss or overlook.

The reason I think that Catra's redemption arc works is because we were given something that Kylo Ren never had in his Trilogy. Moments of Humanity.

To better explain this I need to quick go over what I see as the key moment in Vader's redemption arc in so far as the audience is concerned, that being Vader's talk with Luke after he gives himself up to Vader. Vader and Luke are given a chance to just talk to each other and we see Vader's conflict between his love for his son and loyalty to the Emperor which is shown fantastically through both James Earl Jones amazing voice acting and David Prowse criminally underrated body language acting.

My favorite moment is when Luke says that his father really is dead and Vader is left alone and he leans against the railing and we see how everything that just happened and his own son seemingly giving up on him is tearing him apart.

We get a lot of moments like this with Catra and Zuko, we see the good people they are but have tried to fool themselves into thinking they must be terrible in order to do what they think they must do.

I haven't watched Penguin yet so I can't comment on that but most seem to agree that the title character is a great villain with no real chance at redemption and the show seems to be sticking to that idea. The Penguin is one of Batman's most vial adversaries in most continuities with no real chance at redemption and anything that seems like he's going to reform is just an act. As Sir Humphrey Appleby once said "It's important to get behind someone in order to stab them in the back."

Kylo fails as a redemption villain because he the films spend as much time as possible to make him as irredeemable as possible with few moments of humanity that all seems to mostly be an act.

[Durandal_1707]

What's so great about Darth Vader that warrants redemption? Guy does nothing but spread death and destruction on a planetary scale and all of a sudden he's forgiven because what, he was nice to his own kid once?

[stryke]

I also haven't watched Penguin yet, but I really do appreciate what they did with Penguin in the comics where he wasn't exactly redeemed, he just stopped being as much of an active villain.

He has his nightclub, he has money, he has women, he has respect, at that point he's basically won and doesn't really need to get out the trick umbrellas or tangle with the Bat, and so he becomes part of the fabric that his Gotham who has power, influence, and knows more than most where he becomes a wonderful foil for both the other villains and the Bat family. Someone who can be used as an unlikely mentor with some words of wisdom, just as much as there can be the occasional reminder that this guy is still an utter monster like that one deeply unfortunate chef.

Call it a fourth option to continuing being a villian, death, and redemption, a redefining if you will.

[hammerofglass]

What's so great about Darth Vader that warrants redemption? Guy does nothing but spread death and destruction on a planetary scale and all of a sudden he's forgiven because what, he was nice to his own kid once?

AFAIK in both Legends and the Disney continuity nobody but Luke himself ever actually took Vader's "redemption" seriously.

Death bed repentance sent his Force Ghost to Jedi Purgatory instead of Jedi Hell, that's about as far as his "redemption" went.

[CharlesPhipps]

Vader died trying to make up for his sins.

I don't think there's any reason to complain about it. You can say there's nothing that can make up for what he did and you might be right. But it's also better that he tried at the end versus continuing to be a monster to the end.

[clearspira]

I'm saying nothing new here but i'm going to say it anyway: I could forgive Vader when it was just the OT. What did he actually do that was evil in the OT? He essentially acted as little more than Tarkin and Palpatine's goon.

But when you learn in the Prequels that he hacked to death small children and then strangled his pregnant wife? Nah. Irredeemable. Himmler wouldn't be allowed into Heaven if he helped kill Hitler and yet that is kind of what the Force Ghost scene is implying.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

But Vader is an antagonist, not a protagonist, so he doesn't seem particularly relevant here. Also, the prequels were bad, even if people are nostalgizing them after Rise of Skywalker shit the bed.

[clearspira]

But Vader is an antagonist, not a protagonist, so he doesn't seem particularly relevant here. Also, the prequels were bad, even if people are nostalgizing them after Rise of Skywalker shit the bed.

I certainly cannot disagree with you there. Star Wars really does work best as just three films. It just does. When you start throwing in prophecies, the Chosen One, immaculate conceptions, midichlorians and on top of that, everything that Disney retconned into this story? It just cheapens it.

Kind of like The Terminator really. There are just two films. Speaking of earning redemption, the Terminator giving a thumbs up after learning to love? That is iconic for a reason. He did presumably after all start off as being exactly like the model that we saw in T1.

[CharlesPhipps]

I certainly cannot disagree with you there. Star Wars really does work best as just three films. It just does. When you start throwing in prophecies, the Chosen One, immaculate conceptions, midichlorians and on top of that, everything that Disney retconned into this story? It just cheapens it.

Kind of like The Terminator really. There are just two films. Speaking of earning redemption, the Terminator giving a thumbs up after learning to love? That is iconic for a reason. He did presumably after all start off as being exactly like the model that we saw in T1.

Eh, that's because the sequels are shittily written.