[Marvel] How I'd reboot The Punisher

[CharlesPhipps]

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The Punisher has an image problem. Not the least because real life assholes have adopted his symbol to spread their hate. The thing is that these people have no right to the Punisher because plenty of other people have loved Frank Castle's adventures and hold them as the kind of people he'd go against. I grew up on Punisher War Journal and while I turned into a maladjusted lunatic, that doesn't mean other people didn't.

It goes beyond the Punisher's fandom, though, and the writers themselves. The Punisher is an easy target if you're going to try to argue against comics being too dark or make a social point. But the writers include people who have Frank Castle join Hydra, point guns at Molly from Runaways, and lecture his cop fans. They act like Frank executes all drug dealers and falls into vicious cop stereotypes. He's dehumanized to blood and vengeance with no supporting cast.

In my Supervillainy Saga books, I literally have the protagonist as a guy whose origin is "The Punisher killed his brother and inspired him to believe supervillains are victims." The EXPY is a white supremacist and also statutory scumbag. Thing is my protagonist is also a murderous antihero who just so happens to be allied with the "better" heroes. Merciless represents how the Punisher should be (even if Gary would hate that comparison).

If I was hired by Marvel, my absolute first pitch would be "The Punisher versus the Klan" followed by "Punisher versus Police Brutality." Absolutely, I would make a speech like, Frank is holding a crooked cop hostage and lecturing him as the guy thinks he's about to die.

"I don't go after criminals. I go after monsters. Killers. People the law won't punish because they're too rich, too connected, and too powerful. Because cops like you don't do your job or don't care. You think I'm like you because I kill without a judge or jury. Because I'm a monster too. Maybe. But I'm the monster who preys on monsters.

*BANG*

[misses the cop and leaves him wetting himself]

I don't think the Punisher's problem is his concept. He's an antihero but we have Venom and Deadpool. The problem is that the character is always shown to be punching down and the writers themselves want to make Frank Castle a monster half the time. Which is fine as you can easily write Frank as Dexter. A serial killer who hunts other serial killers.

The Netflix show for me is the first Frank Castle project that attempts to say, "What if Frank isn't actually a psychopathic monster but that is how the public sees him? What if he's actually a guy who has made the questionable choice of going to war against the Kingpin types, evil megacorps, and the in-universe Hydra?"

I'd do it as a series of mini-series rather than ongoings too.

[*] The Punisher vs. Hydra: The Punisher against white supremacy and the Far Right. Guns versus lasers. Frank gets to say to Baron Strucker, "We are not the same. You follow a one-testacle ranting madman."
[*] The Punisher vs. Weapon X (Or Orchis): The Punisher does the Joel thing and ends up protecting a little girl ala Wolverine against mutant hunters. We find out Frank is not afraid of mutants. Maybe a "ordinary man versus a Sentinel" issue.
[*] The Punisher vs. Roxxon: The Steven Siegal movie version of Frank Castle. The locals are being driven off their land by a greedy megacorporation and its up to Frank to stand up for their rights. Typical Western plot where he befriends the locals but has to leave in the end.
[*] The Punisher vs. The Police: More or less the Professional and that one scene from Batman: Year One where the Punisher has to protect some people under siege from an elite SWAT unit. This unit being actually on the payroll of the Kingpin to kill the people involved for, I dunno, real estate or whatever. Would Disney allow it? Maybe not. However, it would be a good rebuttal.

Basically, I feel the Punisher has gotten too far away from, "What if an action movie star from the late Seventies and early Eighties got stuck in the Marvel Universe?" They don't have Frank have any traits other than being a killer other killers. They remove the supporting cast and any emotions other than anger and hate.

The Punisher should be angry. He's a dark character. He's not going to be an aspirational figure like Spider-Man. However, he shouldn't be nothing but anger and hate. There's a lot you can do with an ordinary man in the Marvel Universe who is up against the people who are untouchable. You know, what just about every action movie postulates.

The trick is that if Frank Castle has to choose between protecting an innocent and going after some more killers then he'll (reluctantly) do the former. Because that will be the difference between him and a villain protagonist. Guns may not be the best toy for children but neither are knives and that's Wolverine's chief power.

If Marvel has a problem with Frank Castle, maybe they should write him better is all I'm saying.

[clearspira]

Garth Ennis's run on The Punisher is the definitive version. He's a lunatic, but he also has a code that he fights by. He doesn't harm innocents deliberately. And he mostly only goes after big time crooks (although of course he isn't opposed to murdering a mugger or two) and he does not discriminate between race, sexuality and class.

I think that is the most you can hope for out of the character really. And for God sake, never give him to someone with a clear left or right political bias. He needs to be written by a moderate.

Garth also wrote The Boys and his version of Butler is... Garth Ennis's Punisher with super strength and less morals. The Amazon version is nothing like him. It is actually quite interesting because Comic Butler is openly racist, homophobic and disloyal. Almost as if Garth said ''hey, y'know what? I absolutely can write that dick version of The Punisher that you wanted. He's not as fun, is he?''

[Thebestoftherest]

Personally I think maybe focus on organise crime like mafia, or corrupt like crocked cops, heck maybe have him save someone having A PTSD episode from some stupid cops who is willing to shot that person just to be the big damn hero, damn the consequences.

[CharlesPhipps]

Personally I think maybe focus on organise crime like mafia, or corrupt like crocked cops, heck maybe have him save someone having A PTSD episode from some stupid cops who is willing to shot that person just to be the big damn hero, damn the consequences.

I mean he always focused on the mob. Almost exclusively.

That's because he's a direct rip off of the Mack Bolan novels. Which were....well, the Punisher except Mack Bolan got to enjoy himself at times.

[Nobody700]

Funnily, been working on a massive writing project and writing the Punisher is in it. Just Frank back in his origins as a Vietnam vet... and how a VERY altered Vietnam war makes him decide to gun down those who ended the Vietnam war based on the massive war crimes he witnessed.

[Winter]

I think the problem with The Punisher is that he's part of the Marvel Universe or more accurately that he gets involved in major crossover events. There is no way around this Castle was introduced in a Spider-Man comic but I feel that he works best when he's dealing with regular street level threats like the mob or working as an antagonist and occasional ally to other Marvel heroes but ones that are more low level.

I honestly feel that Castle was well used in Daredevil's second season when he starts out as an antagonist, is tricked into killing someone for Fist and then helps out Matt in the season finale. This is a better use of the character when working either others in the Marvel Universe as these are characters he's better suited to work against and with depending on the situation.

The problem comes in when he has deals with world ending threats or aliens and Gods. I think one of the worst stories ever made for The Punchier is The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe. This really was just Garth Ennis' fanfic where he used a character who really should have no chance to kill even 2 characters in this universe but he can here because Ennis is a Punisher fan and he really hates most of the other superheroes.

One of my least favorite bits of this story is how Ennis writes Captain America and is something that actively bugs me because Castle's admiration of Steve is one of the examples of how having Frank be part of the MU is a good thing which is Castle ADMIRES Steve. He's the reason he joined the Military and is always honored to work with him. It's one of the best example of how Castle CAN work within this universe and feel like he belongs.

But here, Ennis HATES Captain America, feeling that he's an insult of actual soldiers (ignoring the fact that he was created by not one but TWO veterans and is admired by real soldiers) and loves The Punisher so in this story he insults Steven and makes Frank hate him because again this is Ennis' angry fanfic.

I bring this up because there's a misunderstanding of The Punisher, that he remains popular to this day but has failed to have a solo adaptation that has managed to really stick the landing I think is the bigger issue here. The Punisher has been adapted like 3 times and none of them have really stuck the landing and I think that plays a bigger role in his decline in popularity.

Let's be real, films, shows and games are more popular among mainstream then comics and in the comics they keep trying to inject Castle into stories and events he has no real to be in. He has no special powers, he doesn't really have a secret identity he's often more adversary to the heroes then ally and he clashes with most heroes due to him being a murderer.

Sure the people he's killing are often ones who deserve it and is cathartic to see but people like Spider-Man, the X-Men, The Fantastic 4 and Captain America usually try to avoid killing people or kill as only a last resort.

And then writers decide to make him a part of world ending events and just about everyone, including The Punisher are alike "Wait what the hell is he doing here?"

[CharlesPhipps]

One of the all-time classic comics is, of course, DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN but there's an interesting element to this Frank Miller comic that I think would work very well for Frank. Which is the fact that Matt was put up against Nuke, a cybernetically enhanced super soldier that is more or less the Terminator with Ronald Reagan's politics (Liberty Prime in Arnold's body).

And the thing is that Matt UTTERLY GETS HIS ASS KICKED.

This mid-range Captain America villain utterly dominates Matt because being a ninja didn't make him able to win. I feel like you could actually use Frank very well if people would have him face against Spider-Man level villains and then have him be UTTERLY OUTCLASSED and have to use his mind ala Batman but with guns.

You could have Frank vs. the Marvel Universe pretty well I think if you kept him in the weight class of a guy who isn't nearly as tough or fast as Spidey.

Also, we need a PUNISHER VERSUS PREDATOR and PUNISHER VERSUS ALIENS.

But yes, you can definitely have Frank up against Marvel mooks. It's just they both have guns, IMHO.

[Winter]

That is a good point though I think it would be interesting to explore the idea of Frank becoming cocky at one point, like the story starts with him utterly trashing a mob and then a low level Spider-Man villain comes in and offers to deal with The Punisher and, like you said, kicks his ass. Someone like Tombstone, Hammerhead or even Shocker. Frank does rally and beats them but is unable to kill them, reminding him that as dangerous as he is, there are some threats he's just not equipped to handle.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Frank Castle is a hurt person who hurts people. I think the stories work better when the writer realizes that he is NOT an aspirational figure, but part of the fallout of a broken system.

That said, no matter how you write him, he will still have cop fanboys with the media literacy of brine shrimp. It can't be helped.

[clearspira]

Frank Castle is a hurt person who hurts people. I think the stories work better when the writer realizes that he is NOT an aspirational figure, but part of the fallout of a broken system.

That said, no matter how you write him, he will still have cop fanboys with the media literacy of brine shrimp. It can't be helped.

I do wonder about this, whether The Punisher just cannot work in such politically charged times. His very concept requires you to admit that the system is broken - and sure, most of us would agree that it is - but how and why and whether that justifies a vigilante shooting people is the issue.

I brought up Ennis's version of Butcher from The Boys - but really, I think that is perhaps the only way that this character could work in 2024. The Punisher is from a comic book fantasy universe - play into that. Having him shoot parodies of real people is controversial. But limiting him against other superheroes or supervillains is something that probably most of us could get behind.

And frankly, I dislike both the comic and the Amazon Boys so I would be all for another crack at a similar concept. Too much torture, childish attitudes, hate and sex in both versions for me.