Discussing the Lack of a Renegade (Aka be an @$$hole) Option in Recent BioWare Games

[Winter]

This is something that I've noticed a lot in the last few games from BioWare, there is no real option to be aggressive anymore. This started in Mass Effect: Andromeda and was continued in Dragon Age: The Veilguard (might have been done with Anthem, don't know haven't played it) and it really bugs me.

The last time the option to be more aggressive in a BioWare game was in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it made. I've read a lot of comments that DAI also didn't allow you to be a jerk but having played the game to many times to count over the years I can safely say that these comments are straight up wrong. I've played the game as a unruling bitch, a sly manipulator, and a paragon hero with an rude streak. I've told, at one point or another, all of my companions to get their heads out of their asses, insulted one of my advisors for his lack of control in handling his drug addiction and insulted all my enemies.

You can be asshole in DAI and your companions can grow to hate you and even leave after a certain point. Hell it's possible to enslave people, or ruin the lives of anyone and everyone close to you and execute people who are innocent, force someone you get out of jail to serve you while reminding them of what got them in jail to begin with. Let a queen die and black mail her replacement into working for you, insult the people you are helping or saving and also insult people who just lost loved ones.

There are a few times where good in the only option (like what happens with Cole) but even then "Good" is kinda subjective here since even good means causing someone to forget someone they failed to save and letting his memory die from the last person who cared about him.

By contrast, I can't remember a single point where I was able to be truly mean to anyone in MEA or DAV. Now normally I prefer playing as a nice person as while I have been a bitch I generally try to be nice to people. However, there where a number of points in later games where I wasn't really allowed to be mean and the game seemed to bend over backwards to not let me call someone out on their awful behavior.

Not helped by the more limited options in how you're allowed to respond.

One of the reasons I disliked the Paragon and Renegade Checkpoints in Mass Effect was that it was annoying to basically force players into acting one of two ways, be completely good or be an ass.

When I found out that there were exploits to get around this I exploited the hell out of those exploits and when I did that I found I much preferred playing the game as a mix of both Paragon and Renegade. I was no longer restricted to acting a certain way anymore I could play my Shepard as I saw fit.

This was most notable in ME2 as before who I played the game was mostly dictated to me if I wanted certain characters to live or die because sometimes I couldn't clear a P&R checkpoint. When I used the Exploit to max out both P&R I was hit with a sudden realization; I could go in the order of any mission I wanted now. I was no longer limited to going in the order I was use to but could play the game as I saw fit, of the most part.

I realized that I could be as cruel or as kind as I wanted and didn't need to think about how much blue or red I needed in my diet anymore. There where a number of points when before I was forced to be polite or try to reason with someone whom I could not tell them what I really thought.

It was honestly liberating, like I won the lottery.

I still played as mostly a Paragon but I liked that I could say what I thought.

It was the same feeling I got in DAI when I realized that I could play the game anyway I wanted and the only thing limiting me was a few knowledge of the situation.

But in MEA and DAV it felt like it did in ME1 and ME2 only now with no real option to be renegade. DAV was a bit better as the sarcastic option was still there but compared to how it was in DA2 it was honestly rather tamed. Still better then MEA which kept you in what seemed to be the bland neutral option from the first two Mass Effect games.

And on a related note it still bugs me to this day that there isn't a neutral options in ME3, you only have Paragon and Renegade with nothing in-between.

Another issue with most of these games is the overuse to auto-dialogue. If you ever wanted to know how to tell when a BioWare game is being rushed see how many times control is taken away from you when it comes to dialogue. ME3, MEA and DAV all have this issue though DAV does at least give you a bit more control there's still a lot of points where Rook talks for you instead of you making the choices and again, most of them are on the paragon side of things.

If I was to make remakes of these games one thing that would be at the top of my priorities would be to insure a few things.

One: That You are Given the Options between Paragon, Sarcastic and Renegade.

Two: That There is as little Auto-Dialogue as possible

Three: That you have the freedom to play between these options without pushing you.

I can't help but get annoyed when a game that is all about role-playing limits the control I have over my character and I will admit, after seeing this be done in at least 3 games I'm worried that ME5 will follow suit and that we will only be able to play as a Paragon.

[stryke]

The wild thing is that the issues that Bioware had with the arbitary checkpoint of the good/evil dynamic is older than even Mass Effect 2.

For me the biggest example of them messing up is Jade Empire. There's an incredible scene which is probably the best they do in justifying the renegade equivalent Closed Fist ethos where you teach a young woman to stab her master to death as her mother watches horrified. It's a great evil twisted take on the old adage of give a man a fish and he won't be hungry now, teach a man to fish and he'll never be hungry again. You basically make her into a killer and then set her loose on the world. It's so messed up, and easily the highlight of a Closed Fist playthrough of that game.

And the incredibly dumb thing is this scene is where you unlock a special Closed Fist technique... but it's not by taking that option. The actually doing what Closed Fist is supposed to be about option. I honnestly can't even remember what you need to do to get it. Possibly you just leave them there as slaves it's that blandly boringly bogstandard unimaginative for the evils option.

[hammerofglass]

Even when Bioware did have dark side/closed fist/ renegade options it was pretty clear that you were meant to play as the good guy and the evil line was basically a joke. The good guy rewards were better and where there was a mechanical difference they were stronger too. The evil version is kind of a jerk and sometimes murder-y in a cartoonishly over the top way, but that's about it.

I was going to say something about the style not holding up to modern standards but thinking about it Bloodlines let you be a real evil bastard way back in 2004. Hell Obsidian's KOTOR 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2 (especially MotB) both had a lot more developed evil runs than the Bioware games they were sequels to. Bioware just wasn't interested in going there.

[Winter]

Even when Bioware did have dark side/closed fist/ renegade options it was pretty clear that you were meant to play as the good guy and the evil line was basically a joke. The good guy rewards were better and where there was a mechanical difference they were stronger too. The evil version is kind of a jerk and sometimes murder-y in a cartoonishly over the top way, but that's about it.

I was going to say something about the style not holding up to modern standards but thinking about it Bloodlines let you be a real evil bastard way back in 2004. Hell Obsidian's KOTOR 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2 (especially MotB) both had a lot more developed evil runs than the Bioware games they were sequels to. Bioware just wasn't interested in going there.

I think what really bugs me about the lack of renegade/evil options is the lack of expressing myself.

Simplest way to put it, if I like this character I want to to be nice, if I dislike this character I want to be mean and if I want to be a sassy bitch I want to go in the middle.

One of my favorite options in DAI is a moment where you decide to let Cullen give into his addition to Lyrium or help him break it and one of the options is a positive renegade option. Basically you go all drill sergeant nasty, tell him to grow a pair, get shit sorted and makes it an order not to take any lyrium or he might as well just quite his job now.

Another great example of the dialogue options is how you can talk to Vivienne. It's a common misconception that the only way to get her approval is to agree with her but the real way to get the highest approval with her is to disagree with her in such a way that it doesn't sound like your disagreeing with her. Basically you have to talk like a politician in the early game when you interact with her.

But you can just tell her she's an asshole who's system she believes in is a fucked up piece of shit that will ultimately implode and we will be right back where we started.

It's again more about how I want to treat characters then being truly good or evil. In MEA and DAV you really can only interact with people one way for the most part. You can either be nice or slightly less nice. You get few options to really let someone you dislike know how you really feel.

And a consequence of this is that it limits what we can learn other characters.

Going back to Vivienne, she can be absolutely petty, a bitch in sheep's clothing or a halfway decent person depending on how you interact with her. I will never trust Vivienne but I do understand her more because of how I can interact with her.

In MEA and DAI because you can only really be nice it limits what we learn about the characters and in Veilguard this really frustrating because the companions are really interesting and have a lot of depth but the game locks you on one path so we don't really get see who they really are.

It's just frustrating.

[Riedquat]

The awkward thing I find about the choice to be an arse is that I absolutely hate it. I get no joy playing such a character, and I'm rather dubious of people who do. But there's no point in being the opposite if there's no choice, there's nothing virtuous there.

Oh, and there's always the odd occasion where I find it appropriate.

The other issue is, if it's a game I like, after a few playthroughs I usually end up with "Well there's that content that I've paid for and not used..."

[hammerofglass]

The awkward thing I find about the choice to be an arse is that I absolutely hate it. I get no joy playing such a character, and I'm rather dubious of people who do. But there's no point in being the opposite if there's no choice, there's nothing virtuous there.

That's a big part of why playing a good Dark Urge in BG3 was one of the best RPG experiences in a long time for me. Being evil is actively encouraged (literally there's an NPC dedicated to hyping you up for it) and well rewarded with no way to keep your hands totally clean, so taking the extra effort to overcome your character's nature and be a good person means something.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

OT but I played Telltale games Batman where you role play a love triangle between Bruce, Harvey, and Selina... And oh boy I won't get into how easily I found myself gaslighting Dent that I wouldn't blame him for being Two Face.

[Thebestoftherest]

I think if the choices you make paragon or regenade is going to choice you down a path have it appear at the beginning and only gives us choices around those.

[stryke]

OT but I played Telltale games Batman where you role play a love triangle between Bruce, Harvey, and Selina... And oh boy I won't get into how easily I found myself gaslighting Dent that I wouldn't blame him for being Two Face.

I only watched a let's play (Dodger I think?), but even with that I was really impressed that you can actually keep Joker onside without him fully flipping out by putting in enough effort and managing his impulses.

Then Telltale made a much better Fables than the original comics writer ever did so they definitely had some real talent there before the unfortunate thing happened.

[CharlesPhipps]

The awkward thing I find about the choice to be an arse is that I absolutely hate it. I get no joy playing such a character, and I'm rather dubious of people who do.

I can think of a few instances where I'd love to be that person.

Templar: I swear to Andraste I never touched that Mage Girl...

Hawke Batman Voice: SWEAR TO ME!