DS9: The Begotten

[SlackerinDeNile]

So I've been slowly rewatching the show for the first time in about five years (this is my third run through it) and I recently got to this one, I also watched Chuck's review afterwards.

Good grief, I forgot how awful this episode is, it's as nearly as bad and nearly as offensive as Profit and Lace in my opinion.

The stuff with Kira, Shakarr and the O'Brien's was ridiculous and clearly written by someone who either had no idea what a childbirth scenario is like or was just too afraid to give it the cold, hard DS9 treatment it should have gotten. That stuff has been critiqued by Trek fans countless times so I'll skip right onto the A-plot.

Odo was such an idiot in this episode, he felt kind of out of character in several places, for example carrying around the baby changeling, ONE OF HIS OWN KIND, in a mug, IN A FREAKING BAR!

The stuff with Dr Mora was kind of interesting but it lacked the gravitas it had in the previous episode he was in (The Alternate) In that episode he came across as more obsessive and creepy, which I thought was fascinating and rather justified Odo's attitude towards him. Here the episode felt like it was trying to make Odo out to be a stroppy teenager and that Dr Mora was in the right. Also, I didn't understand why Odo wouldn't want to do everything in his power to make the baby changeling safe, healthy and comfortable, the tough love approach towards one of his own people didn't really fit him to be honest.

This is something I've discussed on TrekBBS years ago when I first watched the show but Dr Mora was a criminally underused character, I would have loved to have heard his views on the rest of Odo's people, especially given that he chose to aid Starfleet in researching and stopping the founders from destroying the Federation.

I read somewhere that the writers originally wanted to have him involved in the final story arc and have him revealed to have helped Section 31 develop the virus they created to destroy the founders. That would have probably made 'Extreme Measures' a much better episode in my opinion.

Regarding the dying changeling reverting Odo's 'limitation' at the end of the episode, I didn't really care to be honest, it was obvious that it wouldn't last long and that the writers wanted to use any excuse to get it back as soon as possible. Not that this is a good thing, it's sloppy writing, but it's a minor issue compared to the rest of the flaws of this story or Odo's overall character arc.

[PerrySimm]

The stuff with Kira, Shakarr and the O'Brien's was ridiculous and clearly written by someone who either had no idea what a childbirth scenario is like or was just too afraid to give it the cold, hard DS9 treatment it should have gotten. That stuff has been critiqued by Trek fans countless times so I'll skip right onto the A-plot.

It wouldn't be proper for a mention of Shakaar to go unmet with an eye-roll. It was repeating the same missteps they made with Bareil. Plus, tacking on a Prime Minister undermined all the world building they did when they made the Kai the most important person on Bajor.

The stuff with Dr Mora was kind of interesting but it lacked the gravitas it had in the previous episode he was in (The Alternate) In that episode he came across as more obsessive and creepy, which I thought was fascinating and rather justified Odo's attitude towards him. Here the episode felt like it was trying to make Odo out to be a stroppy teenager and that Dr Mora was in the right. Also, I didn't understand why Odo wouldn't want to do everything in his power to make the baby changeling safe, healthy and comfortable, the tough love approach towards one of his own people didn't really fit him to be honest.

This is something I've discussed on TrekBBS years ago when I first watched the show but Dr Mora was a criminally underused character, I would have loved to have heard his views on the rest of Odo's people, especially given that he chose to aid Starfleet in researching and stopping the founders from destroying the Federation.

I read somewhere that the writers originally wanted to have him involved in the final story arc and have him revealed to have helped Section 31 develop the virus they created to destroy the founders. That would have probably made 'Extreme Measures' a much better episode in my opinion.

That also would have made this episode better... Dr. Mora, wracked with guilt over this entire episode, is desperate to redeem himself and save the last innocent changeling. Then the stunning reveal in Act 5. It's too bad the writer's room tacked on "Odo was the vector" at the last minute.

[SlackerinDeNile]

I kind of disagree with you on Shakaar, he was fine in the episode they introduced him in, plus it made sense for Bajor to have a first minister. It is a deeply religious culture but the religious leaders don't always override the government, just when the real government doesn't have a full leader, is shut down for whatever reason or whenever the majority lets them. I'm sure there are real world comparisons but I can't be bothered to research them right now.

As far as Shakaar being Kira's love interest, he was pretty similar to Bareil in Crossfire although I'm not sure what you mean by taking mis-steps with these type of characters, other than what happened in this episode. I've skipped a lot of the Kira and Bareil episodes this time around and I haven't seen them in years so I don't really remember how it went down. Regarding DS9's romance arcs in general, I'm not much of a romantic but I thought most of the relationships were fine, the only one I had a problem with was Kira and Odo, that made little sense to me but I'll discuss that in another thread.

Another thing about Dr Mora is that he didn't really come across like most other Bajorans, he was much more interested in science and discovery than spirituality or Bajor's politics. In 'The Alternate' he viewed Odo as his greatest specimen and discovery and had a bit of difficulty treating Odo like an individual and a sentient being. In this episode it does seem like he's grown past that somewhat and seems more interested in helping both the baby changeling and Odo as people.

[bronnt]

I kind of disagree with you on Shakaar, he was fine in the episode they introduced him in, plus it made sense for Bajor to have a first minister. It is a deeply religious culture but the religious leaders don't always override the government, just when the real government doesn't have a full leader, is shut down for whatever reason or whenever the majority lets them. I'm sure there are real world comparisons but I can't be bothered to research them right now.

In terms of real world comparisons, it's kind of moot. It's never established that Bajor has a theocracy, and it seems that the Federation wouldn't look too kindly on a theocracy anyway (since it wouldn't be too friendly to freedom of religion.) There's plenty of nations which have had state-sponsored religions but maintained their own government: most Christian nations starting with the Roman Empire and carrying up through the middle ages, excepting only the Vatican states.

Having a head of government doesn't directly invalidate the importance of spiritual leaders, either.

[SuccubusYuri]

Is it sloppy writing though? Like, we know Bashir in this episode is Changeling Bashir, it makes a ton more sense if the "specimen" was actually a piece of him. It is almost unfathomable with how Founder-centric they are that he would just let a Changeling die unremarked, right in front of him.

More likely it was some final test for Odo. Like he tells Sisko, "what better way to judge someone's character than how they treat the helpless" (or however he worded it). If that IS indeed the metric the Founders use as a primary measure, fabricating this scenario makes the most sense as a form of parole hearing. "Killing him would be one thing, but life as a solid? Why don't we break out the leeches and thumb screws!"

[SlackerinDeNile]

Is it sloppy writing though? Like, we know Bashir in this episode is Changeling Bashir, it makes a ton more sense if the "specimen" was actually a piece of him. It is almost unfathomable with how Founder-centric they are that he would just let a Changeling die unremarked, right in front of him.

More likely it was some final test for Odo. Like he tells Sisko, "what better way to judge someone's character than how they treat the helpless" (or however he worded it). If that IS indeed the metric the Founders use as a primary measure, fabricating this scenario makes the most sense as a form of parole hearing. "Killing him would be one thing, but life as a solid? Why don't we break out the leeches and thumb screws!"

Going by your logic why would they give him back his powers? He was carrying around one of his own kind in a solid drinking utensil, plus Dr Mora was the one that started creating an optimal environment for the changeling to grow in.

[SuccubusYuri]

Going by your logic why would they give him back his powers? He was carrying around one of his own kind in a solid drinking utensil, plus Dr Mora was the one that started creating an optimal environment for the changeling to grow in.

I mean, in a container? Have the Founders ever showed revulsion at containers? I'd say that it's a plus he made the effort to empathize and bond with the infant, he could have walked away, or ignored it, it would not be out of character for the Founders to say "well so long as he still idolizes the idea of being with his kind that's what matters, even when we're huge dicks."

[Yukaphile]

I have no problem with the childbirth scene. She's an ALIEN. While poorly executed, I could believe that for some species there is no pain. And really, who WANTS their mate to feel pain in childbirth? I mean, childbirth scenes are so cliche in fiction already that I can understand why they wanted to do something new.

[SlackerinDeNile]

I have no problem with the childbirth scene. She's an ALIEN. While poorly executed, I could believe that for some species there is no pain. And really, who WANTS their mate to feel pain in childbirth? I mean, childbirth scenes are so cliche in fiction already that I can understand why they wanted to do something new.

Biologically speaking Bajorans are extremely human like, female Bajorans presumably have standard vaginas (but not standard wombs, as was mentioned in Body Parts) so I don't see why they wouldn't feel pain, even a little bit, whilst giving birth. It's possible she was given some sort of Bajoran medicine which dulls or numbs the pain, but that should have been mentioned.

[J!!]

thing is, it's not the elasticity of the vagina that's the real problem, it's the width of the birth-canal in relation to the infan't skull. the birth-canal can't get any wider without widening the female pelvis, which is already about as wide as it can get without compromising women's ability to walk bipedally. it's actually theorized that this is the reason human infants are born so helpless compared to other animals; they're born 3-4 months premature, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to get out. most other mammals have a much easier time of it both because they walk on all fours, allowing for a wider birth-canal, and because they lack our big, bulbous braincases.

it seems perfectly reasonable to me then that at least some humanoid aliens could have evolved various solutions to that problem. one possibility might be that bajoran women have some sort of hinged pelvis, able to separate & open up to create a wider passage; consider a snake dislocating its jawbones, to swallow something much bigger than its head. that could even explain the whole relaxation thing, as all the muscles & ligaments would need to be super loose & limber to do something like that.

it's still a boring & stupid subplot for the episode though.