Endgame (VOY)

[Arkle]

Let's just all agree that time travel is stupid and move on.

The best Trek time travel stories aren't the ones that center the time travel, but the characters. City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact (movie), The Voyage Home, etc. work because they aren't time travel stories, they're stories with time travel in them.

[StrangeDevice]

Let's just all agree that time travel is stupid and move on.

The best Trek time travel stories aren't the ones that center the time travel, but the characters. City on the Edge of Forever, First Contact (movie), The Voyage Home, etc. work because they aren't time travel stories, they're stories with time travel in them.

Exactly. A time travel story in Trek is basically just another facet of what it's trying to do already, which is explore the human condition through an unconventional medium. "The City on the Edge of Forever" isn't a successful concept because it's Kirk and Spock in the 1930s, it's at its heart a very intimate story about how a man from the future must allow the woman he loves to die in order to preserve the time which he came from.

"The Voyage Home" likewise works because there's this nice thread running beneath it of interpersonal relationships, the most prominent of which being Kirk and Spock rekindling their friendship and the latter rediscovering himself. It's probably got one of the most haunting instances of the actual time travel process I've seen in science fiction. It's a brief moment in a lighthearted romp where you feel the weight of an entire world resting on this crew's shoulders. If they fail -- everyone will die.

"Endgame" doesn't work (as a time travel story or otherwise) because it doesn't really have any stakes and tries to ape some very well-trodden ground in the form of "Dark Frontier" and "Unimatrix Zero". There are some really lovely moments tucked away in there from the actors like Admiral Janeway begging Seven for help ("People who love you."), but the majority of it just doesn't work because we've seen it all before and not just from Voyager either. It didn't feel like the final hurdle in a long struggle, there wasn't a catharsis or sense that now she'd returned home things would be irrevocably different. It was just... business as usual.

I think it's a mistake that writers often make, which is that in order for things to be epic the scale must be big, but honestly, the most grandiose stories usually centre around such small, intimate ideas like a superman obsessed with revenge against an aged captain or a scientist so desperate she's willing to barter with a weapon of mass destruction in exchange for safe passage. Small dramas that feel far larger than a cast of thousands in an open Colosseum. The emotional strife of a single face vs. the inscrutable wash of millions. There really is no contest.

I much prefer this idea, a desperate hunt for something that has the potential to send them back home while the Borg attempt to acquire the same artifact for their own designs on the Alpha Quadrant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjbIUHBz1LY

[SuccubusYuri]

Jumping to that particular point of time just seemed a bit odd. Why that time? Not earlier, saving more of their crew?

That part never bothered me, actually. It's one area where I completely disagree with Chuck. Why there? Because that time and place was where the transwarp hub was. Seems pretty simple to me. Calling that a plot hole suggests overthinking a show that's notorious for underthinking.

I don't think it was being called to attention as a MECHANICAL plot hole, but just a personal one.

Yes, this is a convenient time to head back to Earth. But why is it MORE convenient than the Caretaker array? If saving lives is the goal, then why isn't the beginning of the whole affair preferable?

The only people Voyager affects in anything of a positive way (that we care about) are Neelix, Kes, Seven, and The Doctor. Neelix will do Neelix things regardless of what ship he's on, and Kes...is an Ocampa, the Space Goldfish. Even if she is a hostage, it's by the Kazon, even Neelix could cook up a rescue plan from that hostage crisis. The Doctor is up for debate, depending on what side of the line you fall on regarding "Does The Doctor have inherent sapience" or "He developed sapience just by running for so long". That leaves Seven, who, fair enough, probably had her life improved by Voyager.

Naomi would be born anyway, she doesn't need Voyager for that. And there's the Borg kids and a few random planets we helped, but it seems silly to say that Voyager would NOT help anyone over the successive 13 years at ALL, that this was some arbitrary line that Admiral Janeway isn't sinning enough. So, not holding any of the geopolitics against her, just going by her rationale, that "our family is incomplete".

Except, in a pure numbers game, many more people than that died before we met Seven. And many more would die before we met the Borg kids.

So I think it is fair to be critical of that plot hole in that it is never addressed. Because the episode does not come DOWN on Admiral Janeway hard for her decision. The only rational explanation then is, as Chuck says, her favorite pet will die so she has to do it HERE, and NOT at the Array. But that does not feel in any way connected to the episode, it's just an uncomfortable detail that is left in the script that no one noticed or cared about being there, than a dramatic tool to show us how the journey broke Janeway. The episode makes this seem like selfishness in the service of magnanimity, but it SHOULD be selfishness in the service of her...mother-vagina, or whatever sexual thrill Janeway gets from bossing Seven around.

[Admiral X]

A pretty good point. It's been a bit long, but it does seem to me that they were at least somewhat self aware about, because IIRC, they very briefly paid lip service before dropping it completely.

[StrangeDevice]

Easy to paper over in the writer's room by a bit of dialogue stating that she overshot by seven years, but that would have really interesting to explore actually. The younger Janeway forces her older self to look at the ship's roll of honor.

"Look at it. I've attended every service, I've... I've watched every body put in the missile tube... Every star out this window may just as damn well mark someone we lost... If you had to come to us, why the hell didn't you come sooner? Where were we when they needed us?"

[Dînadan]

Easy to paper over in the writer's room by a bit of dialogue stating that she overshot by seven years, but that would have really interesting to explore actually. The younger Janeway forces her older self to look at the ship's roll of honor.

"Look at it. I've attended every service, I've... I've watched every body put in the missile tube... Every star out this window may just as damn well mark someone we lost... If you had to come to us, why the hell didn't you come sooner? Where were we when they needed us?"

Speaking of a roll of honour, that would have been an interesting addition to the series; a blank wall somewhere (either in Janeway's ready room or somewhere more 'public' like the bridge or mess hall) that over the course of the series slowly fills up with names/plaques. Doesn't even need attention drawn to it that often, just have it in the background gradually filling up with more inscriptions/plaques. Would even have been convenient for some pathos in the Year of Hell season that never was or some other major episode with at some point Janeway coming across it with some of the plaques fallen down and questioning whether it's been worth it. Would also have played into the theory that over the series Janeway was getting worn down/broken with her spending five minutes of every day looking at the wall to remind herself of the responsibilities of command and the consequences of her decisions and memorising all the names and how they died.

And thinking about it, it would have also been good for some comedy at least once, in the episode where that ensign who died and was brought back to life as an alien, could've had them joking about whether or not that meant they should take her plaque down now she's no longer dead.

[StrangeDevice]

Speaking of a roll of honour, that would have been an interesting addition to the series; a blank wall somewhere (either in Janeway's ready room or somewhere more 'public' like the bridge or mess hall) that over the course of the series slowly fills up with names/plaques. Doesn't even need attention drawn to it that often, just have it in the background gradually filling up with more inscriptions/plaques. Would even have been convenient for some pathos in the Year of Hell season that never was or some other major episode with at some point Janeway coming across it with some of the plaques fallen down and questioning whether it's been worth it. Would also have played into the theory that over the series Janeway was getting worn down/broken with her spending five minutes of every day looking at the wall to remind herself of the responsibilities of command and the consequences of her decisions and memorising all the names and how they died.

And thinking about it, it would have also been good for some comedy at least once, in the episode where that ensign who died and was brought back to life as an alien, could've had them joking about whether or not that meant they should take her plaque down now she's no longer dead.

It would have been an odd thing to have on a science vessel, so I reckon it would have been manufactured by the crew themselves and probably placed in one of the busted holodecks or a similar such retrofitted room. Probably don't think you'd want to be reminded of who died every time you went to eat or had to go up for bridge duty. Chakotay would probably veto the idea of having it in the captain's room if Janeway suggested it. Wherever it is, you could call it the Quiet -- somewhere people go to mourn or when they're feeling particularly moody.

Actually, they could've been a good character moment. The room's locked down, the Doctor has taken away Janeway's authorisation and secured the codes to stop her dwelling so much on it. At the end of the episode, we see she's slipped in with another crewmen and talked with them about who it was they lost. Both air regrets and it actually does some good for the captain, there's a touch of optimism that those who are left can still pull through.

[Admiral X]

Only thing is now this would come off as a rip-off of Mass Effect 3.

[Dînadan]

Only thing is now this would come off as a rip-off of Mass Effect 3.

Really? I'd have thought it'd be ripping of every major memorial in the world. ;p. Alothough that could be because I've never even played Mass Effect 1 let alone 3.

@StrangeDevice: obviously it wouldn't be a standard part of the ship, but something they've added once stranded. Agree having it in the Mess Hall is a bit morbid, but other than the bridge couldn't really think of a place to put it where the audience would see it in the background often without it being intrusive as giving its own room would mean aside from funerals (and they tended to have them in the Mess/on the Bridge anyway) and the odd character moment it wouldn't come up. Hmm, maybe in the Magic Meeting Room? It's seen often, but is out of the way of day to day bustle and the being reminded of dead coworkers while you work can be justified as the senior staff wanting to be reminded of their responsibilities as senior staff. Only other place I can think of is in one of the corridors and the characters can just happen to walk past it in some of the numerous corridor scenes.

[StrangeDevice]

Only thing is now this would come off as a rip-off of Mass Effect 3.

Well, while talent borrows and genius steals... We might as well get it off the back of a truck, no questions asked.

obviously it wouldn't be a standard part of the ship, but something they've added once stranded. Agree having it in the Mess Hall is a bit morbid, but other than the bridge couldn't really think of a place to put it where the audience would see it in the background often without it being intrusive as giving its own room would mean aside from funerals (and they tended to have them in the Mess/on the Bridge anyway) and the odd character moment it wouldn't come up. Hmm, maybe in the Magic Meeting Room? It's seen often, but is out of the way of day to day bustle and the being reminded of dead coworkers while you work can be justified as the senior staff wanting to be reminded of their responsibilities as senior staff. Only other place I can think of is in one of the corridors and the characters can just happen to walk past it in some of the numerous corridor scenes.

Ooh, yeah, the conference room would definitely be at the top of my list for places to stick it. The only issue there is that it's not a public area of the ship. I'm not sure whether that interferes with the purpose of a memorial or not, but I have an inkling that they'd want to put it in a public space. Looking at the technical manual, maybe in VIP quarters?