Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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StrangeDevice
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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Durandal_1707 wrote:
Dînadan wrote:Presumably farming still exists in Trek in some form otherwise places like Sisko's that boast about real food wouldn't exist. Unless whoever they buy off is passing off replicated/artificially created meat, veg and fruit as the real deal and Joe Sisko and the rest don't realise it.
Well, the show's not exactly consistent about it. Even if farming technically still exists, though, I'd expect that it'd be a tiny niche compared to what it is now, since replicated meat would provide you all the benefits with a tiny fraction of the hassle and cost.
Most likely within the Federation, it would exist as a form of alternative living for those who cannot consume replicated matter, whether for cultural or physiological reasons (which raises the interesting question of "Are there some who are allergic to replicated matter?"). Farming would also probably exist on the frontier of their territory as a backup in case their technology broke down and they needed an emergency food supply for the colony/base/station. I think like real life, it would depend on where you were. Out near the border, people use it as a means of supplementing their society's intake. Near the core worlds, they're considered delicacies.

The further on in the series you go, the more that Season 1 of TNG seems to rather wisely exist in its own continuity. I think you can basically sum up the essential viewing of those first two years as "The Measure of a Man", "The Icarus Factor", "A Matter of Honour", "Elementary, Dear Data", "Contagion", "Time Squared" and "Q Who". They're all episodes whose themes are later explored in one way or another over the course of the show.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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SFDebris wrote:My inclusion of Trump in the video wasn't an attack on him, it was just to show how the positions have now reversed themselves. Looking back I thought if anything my portrayal of the left was the meaner because I (and I can't tell you why, it was just spontaneous) gave the line in my Woody Allen impression, which made it sound wimpy and whiny. Like I said, there's no political subtext this video, it's all text. :)
Yeah, I saw this as a politically neutral joke too. I'm leftist and I actually laughed a little at the punchline; the reversal is indeed somewhat an irony. :P

Of course, we all know reality from back then and reality today are both more complicated than that, but your show isn't exactly a political commentary show first and foremost.

...

On replicated meat, wasn't it stated in DS9 that replicated meat has a certain ... I dunno, identifiable fakeness to it? If that's the case then Starfleet personnel most definitely eat farmed meat from somewhere. I suppose this is another piece of Gene's vision that was forgotten or retconned over time, and kind of thankfully. The replicator is too often a concept that has holes which are never addressed, like the transporter's secret to immortality that is never really explained properly.
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PerrySimm
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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Dragon Angel wrote:On replicated meat, wasn't it stated in DS9 that replicated meat has a certain ... I dunno, identifiable fakeness to it? If that's the case then Starfleet personnel most definitely eat farmed meat from somewhere. I suppose this is another piece of Gene's vision that was forgotten or retconned over time, and kind of thankfully. The replicator is too often a concept that has holes which are never addressed, like the transporter's secret to immortality that is never really explained properly.
I think Joe and Ben Sisko preferred to be authentic chefs that cook from fresh ingredients. There didn't seem to be major issues with replicator quality, apart from whenever they need to do a pitstop for a "Worf will eat anything" joke. Voyager's replicator problems are a whole other story.
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Durandal_1707
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Durandal_1707 »

StrangeDevice wrote:Most likely within the Federation, it would exist as a form of alternative living for those who cannot consume replicated matter, whether for cultural or physiological reasons (which raises the interesting question of "Are there some who are allergic to replicated matter?"). Farming would also probably exist on the frontier of their territory as a backup in case their technology broke down and they needed an emergency food supply for the colony/base/station. I think like real life, it would depend on where you were. Out near the border, people use it as a means of supplementing their society's intake. Near the core worlds, they're considered delicacies.
Dragon Angel wrote:On replicated meat, wasn't it stated in DS9 that replicated meat has a certain ... I dunno, identifiable fakeness to it? If that's the case then Starfleet personnel most definitely eat farmed meat from somewhere. I suppose this is another piece of Gene's vision that was forgotten or retconned over time, and kind of thankfully. The replicator is too often a concept that has holes which are never addressed, like the transporter's secret to immortality that is never really explained properly.
A replicated steak should be a 100% perfect replica of the original piece of steak that was used to create the pattern. The reason for this is that it's based on the same matter-to-energy conversion technology that the transporters use, and if that's not 100% accurate, I'd sure never want to step into one.

Heck, even actual farm-raised meat probably went through a transporter at some point in the shipping process. So it's literally *and* figuratively the same thing.

Of course, I'm sure there'd be some people who think they're allergic to replicated meat. Just like today, where you have people who are actually sensitive to gluten making up maybe 2% of the number of people who think they are.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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Durandal_1707 wrote:A replicated steak should be a 100% perfect replica of the original piece of steak that was used to create the pattern. The reason for this is that it's based on the same matter-to-energy conversion technology that the transporters use, and if that's not 100% accurate, I'd sure never want to step into one.

Heck, even actual farm-raised meat probably went through a transporter at some point in the shipping process. So it's literally *and* figuratively the same thing.
Now that I think about it, the "fakeness" may actually be that since the same pattern is used, you literally eat the same meal every time you replicate it. The brain might pick up on that similarity and thus it would get monotonous over time to your taste buds. Which could be gotten around if there were different patterns of the same meal stored, and the replicator would randomly choose between those patterns, but that could be a LOT of memory dedicated to storing molecular patterns of basically the same dishes.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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Durandal_1707 wrote:Heck, even actual farm-raised meat probably went through a transporter at some point in the shipping process. So it's literally *and* figuratively the same thing.

Of course, I'm sure there'd be some people who think they're allergic to replicated meat. Just like today, where you have people who are actually sensitive to gluten making up maybe 2% of the number of people who think they are.
Well, everyone's got their own quirks. Bones was still a bit wary about the transporter despite it being a fairly commonplace device.
Dragon Angel wrote:Now that I think about it, the "fakeness" may actually be that since the same pattern is used, you literally eat the same meal every time you replicate it. The brain might pick up on that similarity and thus it would get monotonous over time to your taste buds. Which could be gotten around if there were different patterns of the same meal stored, and the replicator would randomly choose between those patterns, but that could be a LOT of memory dedicated to storing molecular patterns of basically the same dishes.
Which raises a very interesting set of questions... I wonder if you can taint replicated matter in a similar manner to grain in a silo by messing about with its molecular structure (whether maliciously or accidentally)? Moreover, I wonder if data degradation in memory storage is a problem for twenty-fourth century computer systems in the same way it is now?
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PerrySimm
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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StrangeDevice wrote: I wonder if data degradation in memory storage is a problem for twenty-fourth century computer systems in the same way it is now?
Now I really can't wait for "11001001" :P
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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My own headcanon in regards to replicators is that they don't store and retrieve a transporter clone of a given item, but rather they use a procedural generation system to generate patterns on the spot. Picture how a fractal terrain generator program works, and imagine a similar system being used to generate a "steak" pattern from the macro structure to the molecular structure.

A replicator steak would be made of the same molecules as a real steak, but if one were to look at it under a microscope, it wouldn't be made of actual cells and the like. It would be an abstract-looking lattice of proteins, sugars, amino acids, etc. engineered at multiple scales to provide the same mouth feel and taste profile as a real steak. Nutritionally and sensually the same, but only just structurally similar enough to fool human(oid) senses.

The computer wouldn't have to store full transporter patterns in memory, just tiny files containing a handful of algorithms and seed numbers, along with maybe any complex molecules that aren't in the replicator's standard library.

This would be the way pretty much every replicator pattern would work. Food items designed to replicate natural foods would be made of complexly layered fractal algorithms, but would still be extremely small as computer files go. Stuff like a glass vase, metal structural beam, teddy bear, or phaser rifle would basically be like a CAD file with instructions to bucket fill various internal volumes with specific materials. If you were to look at, say, the frame of a replicated phaser rifle under a microscope, you'd see a molecular structure that was an unnaturally perfect and uniform example of the material it was made of.

I figure that non-replicatable materials are materials that have a microscopic structure which is very difficult to reverse engineer a procedural algorithm for, and/or which cannot be reduced in complexity without destroying the properties that make it useful (i.e. you couldn't replicate them from a procedural dataset any more than you could a live animal).

Replicating transplant organs (e.g. Worf's spine) is difficult because full DNA extrapolation would require a lot more processing power, and would require a lot of research to insure your extrapolation method reliably produced useful tissue and organs instead of cancer cultures or DOA Brundlesteaks.

I imagine this is also related to why transporter patterns can't just be used will-nilly to cure diseases or make people immortal. I imagine that the actual raw transporter pattern is volatile quantum-level data, and is destroyed by the process of re-materializing someone/something: it only exists within the beam, not in physical memory. What's actually stored and used to restore someone is highly compressed overview data of various aspects of a pattern. This stuff is only recorded and kept for diagnostic purposes, and is an EXTREMELY selective, generalized, and lossy view of the raw pattern. When the transporter is used to "restore" someone like this in the show, they're basically hacking it to use this old diagnostic data as replicator-style procedural data to supplant the equivalent raw pattern data within the beam. This is ridiculously dangerous, as this diagnostic data does not represent the same granular complexity as raw pattern data. The risk of turning the subject into a cancer bomb or a puddle of meat soft-serve is super-high. But unlike with the replicated organ thing, each pattern and data-substitution is it's own unique data arrangement, so it's impossible to develop a system to do it reliably. It's a thing you can technically do, but it's always going to be a crap shoot as to whether it won't just straight up kill you horribly like that science officer in TMP, so it's only a viable option when facing certain imminent death anyway.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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SFDebris wrote:Snip
Its not that anything you've said has come across as overtly political, it just seems more of a simple joke - an easy one really - yeah the woody allen thing gave a look into weaker "leftist" ideas, the problem still remains though that when it comes to political comedy, I don't believe you're being impartial about it.

Like I said, Trump supporter here and I can sit and laugh at the jokes people make about him, his silly haircut, his stupid fake tan, his tiny hands and the fact that we should always "believe him" on everything he says. I'm able to laugh at my side when they act like idiots.
I consider myself a Classic Liberal because I'm not anchored to the idea that the people I support can do no wrong.

Less than 2 months into his presidency and you make a joke directed at how the political system has been turned on its head, where the left are saying Russia is evil and the President is saying we should Trust them. It didn't really fit into the flow of the episode if you look at it rationally, the "politics" would be far more akin to the recent Vault 7 Leaks and the CIA than to how the system is flipped, but whatever.

When I see this from someone to tries to remain impartial in his reviews, I have to ask the questions like: where was this comedy when Obama was in talks with letting Iran have Nuclear Power Stations? How about a parallel between Obama interfering in international politics like Admiral Dougherty? Even the easy to spot Obama lead stuff parallel with Section 31?

I don't think you thought of it because you didn't consider it worth a joke. Because he was the side you support. (and possibly for reasons a lot easier than that)
And if you can't joke about your own side making potential fuck ups, you really shouldn't be making jokes about the other side either, just comes across as petty.

I can't put anything forwards that is "true" here, you've said there was no political leanings on this and I accept it.
But this is the last I'll talk on this matter here.
If I truly do get under your skin and piss you off, I'm at least doing my job by offending the right people.
And yes...I do not care if that offends
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Durandal_1707 »

^ Oh, give it a rest. It was a funny joke. I laughed. Lighten up.
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