Star Trek (DIS): Despite Yourself

[MrL1992]

I also like Discovery (I have plenty of complaints, but overall very much enjoy it and loved the hell out of the Mirror Universe arc), but I agree the vitriol is a bit over the top.

Part of it is also that I have moved so far away from the "ruined my childhood" attitude of criticism. A bad story is a bad story, but it doesn't make old stuff suddenly unpalatable. Sometimes it does, like if we know the fate of a character, but in the end the old stories are just as they are. You can have your own personal canon for what did and didn't happen and leave it at that - write your own fanfiction, only watch what you want to watch, but it feels like a lot of the attitudes about new additions to franchises simply HATE that other people enjoy it and you need to call them out for liking it, make sure they know "WELL YOU LIKE IT BUT I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE IT AND I NEED YOU TO TRY TO FIGHT ME ABOUT IT SO I CAN SHOW EVERYONE HOW WRONG YOU ARE."

EDIT: Oh, and going back to talk about the episode since there isn't enough of that - I friggin' love this version of the Mirror Universe uniforms and nothing brings me more joy than Captain Killy.

I couldn't get a normal conversation going on the Season 2 trailer in the Sci Fi and Fantasy section so I empathise.

Probably my biggest disappointment of the seaspn was not seeing the real 'Captain Killy'!

[Linkara]

Is there really a difference between my views on Star Trek Discovery and your views on Frank Miller's Batman, or ''One More Day'', or the New 52 Teen Titans? These things took something you love, spat them out and rendered them a shell of their former selves, yes? Apply that to what I think about STD and you will start to have some idea as to why we get so vitriolic about it. (And with respect sir, you are hardly a shrinking violet yourself when you talk about these works).
As for a bad story not making old stuff suddenly unpalatable, I present to you ''Identity Crisis'' where you point out that the mind rape of Batman actually does retroactively damage many previous stories because now that despicable act is always in the background. Every heroic speech about doing the right thing is now tainted by the fact that they attacked their friend and comrade and went on with their lives for years with nary a word.

Weeeeell, to explain how it's different to me, at least:
-With One More Day, I hate the story because of how it fundamentally goes against what I feel is the core of the character and expressed my discontent in my review and stuck to my vow to never buy another book where Peter Parker as Spidey is the lead and title character. I do not go after those that still enjoy the series or steer the direction of a conversation towards specifically why I hate the character for this single thing at every opportunity. Sure, I'll make jokes about it, but people can like what they like and we can discuss things without THAT being the subject. I also don't say that it "Ruined my childhood" or the like. It was a bad story that made it so that I could not personally enjoy any more stories and I moved on.
-Frank Miller's Batman exists in its own little world where it's just terrible, Year One notwithstanding.
-As bad as the New 52 Titans book was, it was a reboot telling its own story. I did not feel personally betrayed by it - it was just a bad book that eventually got shelved, anyway.

As a critic, it's my job to critique - to see things that are problems and explain why I think something is a problem. But by that same token, I don't have to agree with what other people find to be a problem. Nor do they have to agree with my own thoughts. I also don't have to constantly feel like I need my opinions validated by insulting others about their own tastes, which I see all-too often.

Superhero comics, with that retroactive continuity is definitely a problem that can hurt a character because of what it implies is happening behind the scenes. I don't disagree, and it's one of the problems of Discovery - showing us things that seem at odds with what we had already established (I personally do not like this version of Sarek - he seems too warm, forgiving, and kind compared to what we have seen of him in the past - particularly around this time period). But that's a problem that's limited to what I feel should be a strong continuity given how this is SUPPOSED to be in the Prime timeline. For others, who may have this be their first Star Trek series, that's not an issue for them. Nor is it one for me that is SO BAD that I have to condemn the entire show for it.

[Fianna]

Have they actually confirmed which timeline this series is set in? Given its set decades prior to TOS, Spock and Nero going back in time shouldn't have created any significant changes to the timeline yet.

[CharlesPhipps]

Have they actually confirmed which timeline this series is set in? Given its set decades prior to TOS, Spock and Nero going back in time shouldn't have created any significant changes to the timeline yet.

So it would be both.

I did state I assumed this was the result of First Contact accelerating the timeline's development and maybe also the Temporal Cold War.

BECAUSE I AM A NERD LIKE THE REST OF YOU!

[MrL1992]

Have they actually confirmed which timeline this series is set in? Given its set decades prior to TOS, Spock and Nero going back in time shouldn't have created any significant changes to the timeline yet.

The episode discussed in this thread pretty much confirms it as Prime.

It was never really going to be the Kelvin timeline since the rights to Star Trek TV and Films have been split between CBS and Paramount for some time. It's likely part of the reason the Kelvin timeline even exists. Probably a good thing too because the two companies are under no obligation to work with one another and ensure they follow each others continuity story-wise.

The only bit of continuity between both universes is the whole Romulus destruction incident and prime Spock's fate but CBS could ignore this if it wanted to.

[CharlesPhipps]

In the LOST FLEET books, they encounter the Teddy Bear Cows. Which shows Jack Campbell gave up on being serious, which is a race of cuddly bear-cow people who live in herds. They exterminated all other species on their planet and turned it into an enormous 30 Billion Population with nothing but fields for eating as well as population centers. They're also incredibly aggressive because they're herbavores and herd animals, so they don't value individual life as well as fear all possible predators.

Brrr, terrifying...ly adorable!

Remind me a bit of Saru.

[Starbug]

In the LOST FLEET books, they encounter the Teddy Bear Cows. Which shows Jack Campbell gave up on being serious, which is a race of cuddly bear-cow people who live in herds. They exterminated all other species on their planet and turned it into an enormous 30 Billion Population with nothing but fields for eating as well as population centers. They're also incredibly aggressive because they're herbavores and herd animals, so they don't value individual life as well as fear all possible predators.

Brrr, terrifying...ly adorable!

Remind me a bit of Saru.

I honest to god don't know how to process this information.

[CharlesPhipps]

http://thelostfleet.wikia.com/wiki/Kick

The fact it's still a great series makes it hilarious.

[StarSword]

I'm one of the friends that Worffan101 mentioned who has an overall positive opinion of DSC, but I freely admit it has a lot of problems. If I'd been writing the series I would've done it significantly differently, starting with slowing it the fuck down. Try this on for size.

1. First season. More talking, less VFX porn. Introduce the characters, several solid episodes, and develop a myth arc of the increasing tensions with the Klingon Empire leading up to the onset of the war. You can keep the backstories intact easily enough but the show needs to be less "the Burnham, Lorca, Saru Show In That Order" and take better advantage of the supporting cast.
2. Second season. The actual war. Take a leaf out of DS9, pay attention to what's going on with the characters under the stress of war (this is something I really liked about the series as played). The Federation wants the war to stop, so in between set-piece battles the characters are delving into Klingon culture trying to understand their enemy.

I would have dumped the mirror universe angle entirely: I honestly think that entire arc dragged down the season.

EDIT: That was supposed to say "myth arc" in point #1, my bad.

I think there is a golden opportunity right now for Trek to do something for Trans characters, in the Movie!Verse. Recast Chekov as a woman in the next movie. They are going to have to recast the character anyway if they want to keep them, recast a female actor into the role. Have Kirk or Bones say something like "Chekov's a woman now" - "I'll update the paperwork" and then move on. Job done, much social justice cred, zero amount of effort.

Y'know, Star Wars recently pissed in the face of a legacy character too; it was called ''Luke Skywalker throws his lightsaber over his shoulder, turns into a whiny coward, drinks milk straight from the nipples of an alien cow, and tries to murder his own nephew whilst he is asleep.''
Whilst not quite in the same league as that, giving Chekov a vagina is a great way to put your brand on life support - just like Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy have. I feel as if too many people do not understand why betraying your core fans who have been with a franchise for years or trying to appeal only to one side of the political landscape does not in fact lead to more money.
The Abramsverse does like to piss with legacy characters though so who knows? Turning Sulu gay for example - which worked so well that George Takei came out and not only pointed out that he always played his Sulu as heterosexual but also expressed his disgust at such obvious pandering to his status as the only out gay TOS actor given how they could have picked ANY character to make gay but chose his.

(If this was a joke I apologise, but I have heard so much nonsense like this played straight that I cannot tell anymore).

"Brand on life support" my ass.

• TFA: $2 billion worldwide gross
• Rogue One: $1 billion
• TLJ: $1.3 billion
• Solo: $391 million

So, they're three for four on making Titanic-range money with Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy on the job. By any normal SF blockbuster standard those films were absurdly successful. Try again.

By the way: TLJ was a fantastic film, and Luke was completely in-character, up to and including the Rashomon telling of his confrontation with Ben Solo. Having beaten the Dark Side once doesn't mean he's never going to be tempted again.

[Deledrius]

By the way: TLJ was a fantastic film, and Luke was completely in-character, up to and including the Rashomon telling of his confrontation with Ben Solo. Having beaten the Dark Side once doesn't mean he's never going to be tempted again.

I thought that part was especially well realized. I appreciated the depth it added without sabotaging him. The only part I had a problem with in regards to his role in the film was the way in which the conclusion was executed. It's the sort of thing which retroactively weakens other parts, I think.