Anime: Mobile Suit Gundam

[RobbyB1982]

I'm a big Gundam fan but yeah... the movies of the original series are really rough, (so is the actual series) and slow paced. Hell, even watching the *review*, which is a condensed version of a condensed version it felt slow and overlong.

Original Gundam is just, well... old. And low budget. ANd it's been refined and reiterated on by everything that followed. It really shouldn't be watched except for someone already deep into the franchise, as the historical footnote origin that it is, and and to see why Char is such an iconic big deal.
But overall, almost any of the later series are better bets for watching for a modern audience.

Similarly, I'm a HUGE Lupin III fan but I'd never recommend the 71 green jacket series to anyone that wasn't already a big fan, even though it contains my single most favorite episode of the entire franchise. I'd barely even recommend the 77 red jacket series that followed that, and THAT was the super popular long running most iconic and beloved series of the bunch, that even had a fantastic dub (for about half its episodes). A lot of older animations just haven't aged terribly well for a variety of reasons.

[Trinary]

I... rather get the "Don't really give a F*** anymore" response. We need to give Chuck better anime to review.

Maybe some Cowboy Bebop, or some Trigun, or... or...

Wow. Chuck deserves a medal for raising his kids.

Oh right! Good anime. Outlaw Star, Fullmetal Alchemist, or maybe something a little more grounded and not as crazy, with less scifi and more... well, trek or something.

Tenchi Muyo's got a relatively decent dub performance for its day.

True! It's also pretty good too, though not as big a favorite as the others mentioned.

Funnily enough, Big O and Tenchi Muyo were some of the absolute first anime I ever saw, way back when I could only see Cartoon Network at my grandmother's during holidays.

I'd suggest the new Voltron series, "Legendary Defender" (giant transforming robots and alien empires, right up Chuck's alley!) but I don't know if it being a Netflix-exclusive would present issues for him.

[K.E. Schwartze]

I'm a big Gundam fan but yeah... the movies of the original series are really rough, (so is the actual series) and slow paced. Hell, even watching the *review*, which is a condensed version of a condensed version it felt slow and overlong.

Original Gundam is just, well... old. And low budget. ANd it's been refined and reiterated on by everything that followed. It really shouldn't be watched except for someone already deep into the franchise, as the historical footnote origin that it is, and and to see why Char is such an iconic big deal.
But overall, almost any of the later series are better bets for watching for a modern audience.

Similarly, I'm a HUGE Lupin III fan but I'd never recommend the 71 green jacket series to anyone that wasn't already a big fan, even though it contains my single most favorite episode of the entire franchise. I'd barely even recommend the 77 red jacket series that followed that, and THAT was the super popular long running most iconic and beloved series of the bunch, that even had a fantastic dub (for about half its episodes). A lot of older animations just haven't aged terribly well for a variety of reasons.

Would that be the infamous "prison" episode where Lupin lets himself get caught just to mess with Zenigata? (and set up his next move).

Yaz's "Origin" manga smoothed out a lot of the rough spots enough that I can enjoy that version (Yaz is better with people than Tomino ever is anyway). He manages to do what they were apparently trying for with Slegger (a rough outsider, with a lot of experience, sorta a contrast to Ryuu).

Older Anime can be a test for the art (very up and down, and back this far, mostly down). It kinda helps keep me grounded though, Char's Counterattack looks so good, that the new characters are REALLY annoying.

Messy as it is, you really have to go back to the start to understand a genre. With this under his belt, Eva would never have seemed so out there to Chuck. The problem is that Gundam is notable for the big details (human versus human, pawn's eye view of a bigger story, bad guy in-fighting and a charismatic villain, though Deslar/Deslock got there first). The problem is that Gundam isn't as good at execution of ideas as it is of having them.

[Outsider]

It's interesting to get someone who isn't interested in anime in general and robot anime in particular commenting on what is held up as a key series in this particular area of animation. It's also always to get something you particularly enjoy getting the old SFDebris treatment. So thank you Chuck for that.

The original Gundam series was one of the first shows I watched once I got back into anime about a decade ago and quite frankly remains one of my favourite entires in the franchise. I've rewatched it a few times since then and I personally would hold it up as the best Gundam TV series, but then I am a big fan of 70s and 80s shows in particular and also of Tomino's somewhat eclectic directorial style. The story, the animation that, while not exactly the best was colourful and well composed with great fight choreography, iconic character and technical designs, plus the music, etc all endear the series to me. This is also ignoring the huge impact the series had on robot anime, with the period from 1980 to 1985 seeing an explosion of director driven robot shows with much larger creative influence (provided they could sell the model kits) that Gundam brought about, which brought forth series such as SDF Macross, AT VOTOMS, Giant Gorg, Round Vernier Vifam, and other Tomino shows as well such as the remarkable Ideon and Xabungle, to mention some. To me, Mobile Suit Gundam is a fantastic show with a great story; plenty of flaws, sure, but one of the greats. It draws on a lot of the good stuff that went before (Combattler V, Zambot 3, Yamato and others come to mind) and presents it in a very fresh way, coming to a brilliant climax. There is a chaotic, desperate feel to the final arc of Gundam that I've only felt in a few other shows (many of them also directed by Tomino, however). Is it my favourite robot show? No. Is it even my favourite Tomino show? No. But it's one of my favourites.

I mention this not because I want to say that Chuck's opinions were incorrect or he got the wrong impression. I think his views are personally quite valid and reasonable, even if I disagree with some of them as a lot of things are subjective.

But I mention this because I think this review touched on something that is very important to note and something which comes up again and again when people are debating what to watch; the films of the series. For those of you who don't know (which isn't very few at this point judging by how long the thread is), there is an ongoing debate amongst fans of robot anime, and particularly by people who are getting into it who want to watch Gundam on which you should watch. Now I'm happy to admit my opinion on the show is utterly subjective. But one thing I have always stood by in the debate between watching the films or the show is to watch the show first, then watch the films a few months later.

These films were not made to be a replacement for the show; they were a treat for the fans with some better animation in parts, redesigns in others and, most importantly, showing a condensed version, the 'best hits' of the series. This sort of thing was very common at the time in Japan because of the lengthy nature of many cartoon series at the time (Gundam was on the low side with the episode count it had; previous shows could be a bit lower, but many were much higher; between 30 and 50+ episodes with some reaching into the 90s could be expected). This was also well before the era of tape recorders or even the idea that anime, once broadcast, would be broadcast again. The films were a way for people to essentially relive the series in a short period with their memories filling in the blanks. They were never made to replace the the television show, or serve as the Director's Cut version. Sure, things were changed; scenes were reanimated, sillier designs removed, but with that goes the content around it. Entire episodes that were largely about character development or facing particular challenges that had lasting impacts, deaths of major characters and more were removed from the film due to time constraints without even a mention.

Chuck's points about everything needing context, about compression and the need for events, actions and character development to breath all ring very true to me. Of the three films, only one of them stands out as something which can stand somewhat as its own thing; the third, Encounters in Space. But even that cuts out a great deal of content and more importantly, spacing. These shows were meant to be watched one episode a week and planned accordingly. Of course you can watch one episode a day or the whole show in a day and if I'm enjoying a series, I'll sit down and watch the entire thing in one sitting at times. But then I'm really into robot shows and even I will admit there's shows out there that benefit from spacing them out, one episode a day or more.

I think it's somewhat important in this debate about what to watch that someone who isn't particularly interested in this niche bit of anime reviews the films and made the point that Chuck did. So many people seem to want to watch shows and rush through them, to claim they did it without actually enjoying what there is. Some people can argue about the ideas of bad episodes, boring episodes, watch lists, and skippable episodes. Sure, you may think that the Gyan was a silly design, or that the episode where the Zeon hoverbike pilots planted the bombs wasn't exactly action packed or that the (personally fantastic for me but admittedly for reasons other than plot or writing...) episode Doan's Island were all something that can be cut, but they all had an impact on the series. They all presented areas of character or plot development that aren't there in the films. They allow for decompression, for things to settle in the mind and even to give the impression that things are taking time. The White Base is traveling a huge distance in the series, and this doesn't really come across in the films Events move so quickly, the whole sense of a journey is gone when what took three hours in the series is covered in thirty minutes in the films. I've known people who have watched Tomino's next show after Gundam, Space Runaway Ideon, who have just watched the absolutely inadequate recap film before the finale. I don't want to say this is the wrong way to do it, but you are absolutely missing out if you do this. For another example, Do You Remember Love is not a replacement or a 'better' version of SDF Macross and I'm sure I could go on (Xabungle Graffiti, the L-GAIM OVAs, etc). These films are not made as replacements for the series. They complement them.

Now, whether people prefer the films or the series is very subjective, as I mentioned before, and both have their positives or their negatives but I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that the series should be watched first, if you want to watch it at all. I love Encounters in Space, but would I love it as much if I hadn't seen, and enjoyed, the original series? Most likely not. And Chuck's last words there, that this was not the way he felt he should have encountered the series ring very true to me.

[RobbyB1982]

Similarly, I'm a HUGE Lupin III fan

Would that be the infamous "prison" episode where Lupin lets himself get caught just to mess with Zenigata? (and set up his next move).

Yup, the fourth episode. It's quite a goody. It'd been reprised and redone a couple times over the years since, but that one was just great. (Though its less that he "let" himself get caught, and more that he spent months in jail and didn't really try to escape until the last minute... but yes, mostly to mess with Zenigata. )

I didn't realize the episode was infamous.

[RobbyB1982]

They allow for decompression, for things to settle in the mind and even to give the impression that things are taking time.

The Galaxy Express films are SUPER guilty of this. They're actually okay as films because they cut *so* much of the series and just focus on a couple plots so that you might not even realize.... but it was a 113 episode series cut down to a pair of two hour movies. SImilar for the Space Battleship Yamato series. The movie gets you the basic idea and the biggest plot points but loses all the character stuff.

For another example, Do You Remember Love is not a replacement or a 'better' version of SDF Macross

DYRL at least is SO radically different from the show that this comparison is almost never made. No one tries to say you can just watch the movie and get the entire story. It wasn't just a re-spliced clip show, it told a different story with a different history, different setup for the characters, different designs.

[Outsider]

For another example, Do You Remember Love is not a replacement or a 'better' version of SDF Macross

DYRL at least is SO radically different from the show that this comparison is almost never made. No one tries to say you can just watch the movie and get the entire story. It wasn't just a re-spliced clip show, it told a different story with a different history, different setup for the characters, different designs.

You'd think that, but I've seen a fair few people argue otherwise over the years. It's the most extreme example, but it helps to serve the point.

[K.E. Schwartze]

Similarly, I'm a HUGE Lupin III fan

Would that be the infamous "prison" episode where Lupin lets himself get caught just to mess with Zenigata? (and set up his next move).

Yup, the fourth episode. It's quite a goody. It'd been reprised and redone a couple times over the years since, but that one was just great. (Though its less that he "let" himself get caught, and more that he spent months in jail and didn't really try to escape until the last minute... but yes, mostly to mess with Zenigata. )

I didn't realize the episode was infamous.

Okay maybe "notorious".

I've run booths at a lot of cons and sold quite a few Lupin figures (mostly Fujiko to no one's surprise). That bearded Lupin is one of the few figures offered for sale from a specific episode. The other was Fujiko's camo outfit from Calistro, though no one has done a regular size figure of her "full commando" run in Albatross Wings of Death.

[K.E. Schwartze]

For another example, Do You Remember Love is not a replacement or a 'better' version of SDF Macross

DYRL at least is SO radically different from the show that this comparison is almost never made. No one tries to say you can just watch the movie and get the entire story. It wasn't just a re-spliced clip show, it told a different story with a different history, different setup for the characters, different designs.

You'd think that, but I've seen a fair few people argue otherwise over the years. It's the most extreme example, but it helps to serve the point.

I prefer DYRL over Macross the series, but that's mostly because I never much rated the show (the movie hits the high points, and doesn't have near the animation errors). I like the Max/Millia duel in the movie (that by rights could end with them splitting a 2 meter cigarette) over the TV knife fight (even though the TV version of their courtship let's me deploy my favorite Steve Galuchi quote).

Compilation movies help get rid of "deadwood" episodes (probably 25% of an old series), but you lose the small cycling of a TV episode. Eva 1.11 really has this issue, even though it's really just the first 6 episodes run together. Removing commercials and credits really seems to dull the effect of a lot of the story. Partly because it was written both to be about Giant Robot Anime while BEING a Giant Robot Anime (with the fight scenes concentrated at episode end). Yamato/Star Blazers FEELS epic when there is a break between episodes and progress is so gradual.

Doing Gundam, I prefer the Manga, but it's hella long, 12 thick collections (probably 30 volumes in thin) so it isn't much of an abridgement. Doing the Movies is needed to get 15+ hours down under 5, but a lot of things get lost and others emphasized. I mean it looks like Amuro was getting slapped every 10 minutes, I think the manga cut it to the big scene and maybe one other.

[RobbyB1982]

I've run booths at a lot of cons and sold quite a few Lupin figures (mostly Fujiko to no one's surprise). That bearded Lupin is one of the few figures offered for sale from a specific episode. The other was Fujiko's camo outfit from Calistro, though no one has done a regular size figure of her "full commando" run in Albatross Wings of Death.

Huh. I almost never see Lupin merchandise at cons. I don't really look super hard anymore, I have what I want, but still.