STD: What's Past is Prologue

[Robovski]

I doubt it's a case of "hey, it's OK to do this" as much as "I didn't think of it like that." In the Batman and Harley Quinn movie, Harley straight-up rapes Robin (he's tied up), and it's done for comedy. Now she's about as sane as Papa Smurf is tall, but nobody seems to care.

While that scene was very juvenile and the entire movie very immature, Nightwing did clearly consent. Actually, if she was as mentally ill as you claim, you could argue he was taking advantage of her.

Did I miss the consent? He seemed uncertain then there was a scene cut and they'd done the deed, unless I missed something. He didn't seem to mind afterward, but I didn't see consent. And one could say that he took advantage of her but since she had him tied up at the time, that one wouldn't be me.

It's about as much consent as when Batgirl ''raped'' Batman in The Killing Joke but without the bondage.

[Yukaphile]

It was "Joker" that possibly raped "Batgirl," not Batman...

[Worffan101]

Well, the point of all stupidly dumb decisions has finally come to Star trek proving that Star Trek: Discovery is the Stargate: Universe of bad tv shows. With Star Trek: Discovery you have Michael making one dumb ass decision after another, and Stargate: Universe you had a bunch of scientists thinking that they take on well-trained Marines in hand to hand combat. in Stargate: Universe we also had a Marine as a woman got kidnapped by aliens. if sfdebris ever reviews Stargate: Universe he'll probably have a contest on who is the stupidest with Star Trek: Discovery and Stargate: Universe ranking at the top.

Stargate Universe had a lot of problems to it. The characters were unlikeable, they made a lot of stupid decisions, it tried way too hard to be like Battlestar Galactica and not hard enough to be like Stargate, etc. etc. But its biggest sin was that it was boring. So, so boring. The plot moved at a snails pace and way too many episodes just felt like a bunch of people wandering around bickering with each other. If SFDebris ever does review its pilot, the most accurate review it could be given would just be a 90 minute audio file of Chuck snoring.

Weirdest part, the writers should've been better than that. John Scalzi was on that team and he went on to be one of the best authors of modern SF I've read, with a knack for fast-paced sci-fi thrillers and biting comedy.

[BlackoutCreature2]

I doubt it's a case of "hey, it's OK to do this" as much as "I didn't think of it like that." In the Batman and Harley Quinn movie, Harley straight-up rapes Robin (he's tied up), and it's done for comedy. Now she's about as sane as Papa Smurf is tall, but nobody seems to care.

While that scene was very juvenile and the entire movie very immature, Nightwing did clearly consent. Actually, if she was as mentally ill as you claim, you could argue he was taking advantage of her.

Did I miss the consent? He seemed uncertain then there was a scene cut and they'd done the deed, unless I missed something. He didn't seem to mind afterward, but I didn't see consent. And one could say that he took advantage of her but since she had him tied up at the time, that one wouldn't be me.

He said "the things I do for Gotham" in a seductive tone and very clearly was returning that kiss that she gave him. No, he didn't fill out the written forms in triplicate, but he was definitely consenting.

[Darth Wedgius]

I doubt it's a case of "hey, it's OK to do this" as much as "I didn't think of it like that." In the Batman and Harley Quinn movie, Harley straight-up rapes Robin (he's tied up), and it's done for comedy. Now she's about as sane as Papa Smurf is tall, but nobody seems to care.

While that scene was very juvenile and the entire movie very immature, Nightwing did clearly consent. Actually, if she was as mentally ill as you claim, you could argue he was taking advantage of her.

Did I miss the consent? He seemed uncertain then there was a scene cut and they'd done the deed, unless I missed something. He didn't seem to mind afterward, but I didn't see consent. And one could say that he took advantage of her but since she had him tied up at the time, that one wouldn't be me.

He said "the things I do for Gotham" in a seductive tone and very clearly was returning that kiss that she gave him. No, he didn't fill out the written forms in triplicate, but he was definitely consenting.

Fair enough. I could see that as possibly consent, though I thought he was just making the best of the situation. From a "no means no" standpoint it probably works, but not from a "yes means yes" approach.

[BlackoutCreature2]

Well, the point of all stupidly dumb decisions has finally come to Star trek proving that Star Trek: Discovery is the Stargate: Universe of bad tv shows. With Star Trek: Discovery you have Michael making one dumb ass decision after another, and Stargate: Universe you had a bunch of scientists thinking that they take on well-trained Marines in hand to hand combat. in Stargate: Universe we also had a Marine as a woman got kidnapped by aliens. if sfdebris ever reviews Stargate: Universe he'll probably have a contest on who is the stupidest with Star Trek: Discovery and Stargate: Universe ranking at the top.

Stargate Universe had a lot of problems to it. The characters were unlikeable, they made a lot of stupid decisions, it tried way too hard to be like Battlestar Galactica and not hard enough to be like Stargate, etc. etc. But its biggest sin was that it was boring. So, so boring. The plot moved at a snails pace and way too many episodes just felt like a bunch of people wandering around bickering with each other. If SFDebris ever does review its pilot, the most accurate review it could be given would just be a 90 minute audio file of Chuck snoring.

Weirdest part, the writers should've been better than that. John Scalzi was on that team and he went on to be one of the best authors of modern SF I've read, with a knack for fast-paced sci-fi thrillers and biting comedy.

I got the impression that the producers of SGU were completely enamored with Battlestar Galactica and were somewhat obsessed with creating a Stargate version of BSG. So anything more fast-paced and fun that Scalzi or any of his contemporaries might've suggested was probably quickly mooted by the higher-ups desire for "dark edgy plots" and "mature storytelling", aka unnecessary drama and unlikeable characters.

[AlucardNoir]

Dude, it's literally the Atlantis episode with the sex-drugs guy only that scumbag's cast as a sort-of good guy.

Seth McFarlane and the lady who plays the sociopathic murderous version of Wonder Woman (I think her name's Adrianne something?) in that one garbage TV pilot are drugged by the blue dude's sex hormones, and the blue dude KNOWINGLY used those same sex hormones to screw the latter when she was married to McFarlane. He straight-up roofied the woman to rape her, then does the same to her AGAIN and doses McFarlane too.

That's evil, man. Like, that makes the bitch from ENT: "Unexpected" look decent by comparison, that kind of evil. And it's treated as a joke.

When I was in highschool, almost 15 years ago, I had to write a history paper, the topic we were studying at the time was the second world war. I wrote one on the Holocaust. I'm not of Jewish decent and I'm not of German decent. Reading the accounts of what happened in the concentration camps made me angry, so angry in fact that when I was made to present the paper in front of the class - it was our teachers way of making sure we hadn't just copied it off the internet - I actually started enunciating my words with a bit too much bile. It reached the point were my teacher stopped me and asked me if I was Jewish or had lost someone in the camps and if I wanted to stop. I wasn't, I hadn't and I didn't. It's just that sometimes shit hits you hard. I never forgot the teacher stopping me, because, well for the same reason there was only one scene in the first episode of The man in the high castle that actually moved me and steered any emotion in me. And that's because a lot of people like you and me did a lot of literally evil things to a lot of other people also just like you and me.

In the case of the Cupid's dagger episode I did dislike the blue dude, I did find him abhorrent, but I found him as a character abhorrent. Not the actor playing him. When the episode ended I felt pity for the Captain and his first officer, not anger towards McFarlane for trying to find humor in a situation that most shows wouldn't even touch. For you, it is unacceptable that they made fun of rape. I don't have a problem with that. I don't think there is anything off limits when it comes to jokes. As for the Ent comparisons, this might just be me, but I think the reason why I was riled up in that particular Ent episode but not in this one is because Ent is attempting to be serious and that episode treated the matter flippantly, while Orville isn't trying to be serious so the way they treated the matter of rape fits right in with the goofy, over the top feel the show is trying to cultivate.

Thing of it like fantasizing about rape. No one that does that actually wants to get raped. Hell, if they did they'd probably be scared for life, but fantasizing about being raped? role playing being raped, that ok. Why? because none of the involved parties are actually getting hurt. The Orville tries to be a light, funny show, that doesn't mean they can't deal with heavy topics or make fun of heavy topics.

For me, the show didn't cross the line. One single scene and just a few tossed lines about burning the old and the sick in The Man in the High castle was enough to induce actual terror in me. Yet I have no problem laughing at holocaust jokes. I have no problem laughing when comedians like Jimmy Car make jokes about the holocaust, rape or about pedophilia. But laughing at those jokes doesn't stop me from being horrified, terrified and angry when dealing with them seriously. You on the other hand do have a problem when certain topics are not treated with the seriousness you think they deserve.

PS, I'm to lazy to reread and proofread this, hope it makes sense.

[SeitoAkai]

These reviews make my brain hurt. What is with this show...?

A big old behind the scenes chaos.

Is it paranoid to think this series might be revenge on Chuck for some particularly hard-hitting Voyager / Enterprise reviews?

It compensates for it's stupid with having our first not silly looking phaser battles in serialized form and way better fight choerography than the other series.

That's one thing that I think STD gets right. After phasers got progressively less dangerous through the TNG Era (including Enterprise) it's nice to see them become deadly again. And having them fire pulses makes for a better gunbattle than having everyone freeze in place for a couple of seconds while their phasers spit out a beam.

The whole rant about the silliness of the magic space mushroom thing was the best part of this review, though. As much as I want to give the show a fair shake, and I'm willing to excuse a lot in order to do so, that particular plot element is just too much of a shake-up of the status quo to be acceptable. Why would Starfleet be willing to just shelve a technology that allows instantaneous travel anywhere, across any reality? Just because of the ethics of needing a genetically-modified Guild Steersman, er, navigator to run the thing? Just take one of those space dolphins that TNG had offscreen and you're good. And why hasn't anyone else that the Federation encountered ever made this discovery?

And you know that if it existed, Janeway would have made use of it at some point. She'd have gladly volunteered Harry to be the navigator.

[Durandal_1707]

^ All you need to know is that The Orville had a "hilarious" "comedy" episode about date rape.

You don't want to know more than that, and you definitely don't want to watch the episode.

It rather impressively managed to beat out Doctor Who's "Love and Monsters" for the title of worst episode of anything I've ever seen, ever.

I'd rather watch a DS9 Ferengi marathon with Neelix scenes special-editioned in than see that episode again.

Meh, the episode was mild, really mild. Frankly I don't understand how people that were offended by that episode make it on the internet, or in the real world. Worse of all are people like yourself with your "and you definitely don't want to watch the episode" mentality.

Seriously, you shouldn't be the one that gets to make that decision for other people. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should be forced to watch that episode, or any other - the Orville is a mixed bag at the best of times, and Cupid's Dagger was far from it's best, but language like that gives the impression that your opinion is all that matters and that once you made up your mind, the world should just fallow. The people that made it thought it was worth watching, and enough people thought it was ok to keep viewing further episodes.

Dude, it's literally the Atlantis episode with the sex-drugs guy only that scumbag's cast as a sort-of good guy.

Seth McFarlane and the lady who plays the sociopathic murderous version of Wonder Woman (I think her name's Adrianne something?) in that one garbage TV pilot are drugged by the blue dude's sex hormones, and the blue dude KNOWINGLY used those same sex hormones to screw the latter when she was married to McFarlane. He straight-up roofied the woman to rape her, then does the same to her AGAIN and doses McFarlane too.

That's evil, man. Like, that makes the bitch from ENT: "Unexpected" look decent by comparison, that kind of evil. And it's treated as a joke.

Don't forget the blob guy and the doctor—the latter being the only sympathetic character in the show—getting date-raped as well. Those two were by accident, UNLIKE THE OTHER TWO, but still... not enough brain bleach in the world to clean that image out.

Plus, IT'S AN ARC EPISODE. It's not just some random standalone, because this is the episode in which McFarlane's character finally makes up with his ex-wife. Because that cheating on him that she did in the pilot, you know, the thing that destroyed their marriage, sent McFarlane's character into a downward spiral, and caused him to be bitter and angry at her all this time... well, turns out it wasn't really her fault. Because she was raped. Ha ha, what a wacky misunderstanding!

Seth McFarlane can go straight to hell if this is what he thinks is funny.

And to the other guy: You are free to follow or to ignore my advice as you choose, and that's fine, but I have every right to express my opinion on here. And my opinion is that you should not watch this episode. You don't have to agree, but that's my opinion. And if you don't like it, tough.

[Darth Wedgius]

If it were just the blue guy in the Orville episode in question who was using pheromones I could have accepted it as aliens gotta alien, cultural differences, humans reacting more strongly than he expected, etc. And blue guy seems to see it from a different point of view at the end when he realized he'd really hurt people. The very end, where the captain and XO's marriage may have suffered because of it, seemed to be treated with a certain gravity. So far, better than how Atlantis treated it.

But what the command crew do with the pheromones (I won't spoil that)... That's what pushed it over the edge for me. It didn't make me regret seeing the episode, and for me it doesn't come anywhere near "Dear Doctor" or "Homeward" in my I-want-to-slap-these-people scale, but it left a bad taste no matter how many lives they saved.