Should Kathleen Kennedy be let go from the Star Wars megaproject?

[Yukaphile]

Well, regardless, I think we can all agree they took their one chance at a nostalgic get-together, and ruined it. Harrison Ford wanted OUT, always did, Carrie Fisher's dead, and... that just leaves Mark Hamill, who was screwed over. Our chance to see them take one last adventure together, bwahahahaha, is gone. But hey, at least we still have Legends! They may just have to adapt that to the big screen someday, given all people wanted was to see our heroes together off kicking ass on a new galactic threat. Then again, I'm coming to slowly see that most Star Wars fans are very superficial. Step outside the box too much, try to do something that's too new past the original trilogy's format, and they get really uppity. Very sad state of affairs, people.

[Karha of Honor]

Well, regardless, I think we can all agree they took their one chance at a nostalgic get-together, and ruined it. Harrison Ford wanted OUT, always did, Carrie Fisher's dead, and... that just leaves Mark Hamill, who was screwed over. Our chance to see them take one last adventure together, bwahahahaha, is gone. But hey, at least we still have Legends! They may just have to adapt that to the big screen someday, given all people wanted was to see our heroes together off kicking ass on a new galactic threat. Then again, I'm coming to slowly see that most Star Wars fans are very superficial. Step outside the box too much, try to do something that's too new past the original trilogy's format, and they get really uppity. Very sad state of affairs, people.

Were they uppity about RepubLic Commando or KOTOR?

[Yukaphile]

Case in point, most fans prefer KOTOR 1 over KOTOR 2, so... yeah. KOTOR 2 is like a dark, forgotten sibling in that galaxy far, far away that's overshadowed by the first game, which is the quintessential Star Wars formula. I, of course, prefer the second game. Because it did something new, which The Last Jedi failed to do - a complete deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, while still being good. It sadly seems to be an opinion SF Debris might share given he talked about "the weaknesses" of the sequel.

[Karha of Honor]

Case in point, most fans prefer KOTOR 1 over KOTOR 2, so... yeah. KOTOR 2 is like a dark, forgotten sibling in that galaxy far, far away that's overshadowed by the first game, which is the quintessential Star Wars formula. I, of course, prefer the second game. Because it did something new, which The Last Jedi failed to do - a complete deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, while still being good. It sadly seems to be an opinion SF Debris might share given he talked about "the weaknesses" of the sequel.

Because LFL had a stupid policy of forcing out games to early.

Kotor 2 was unfinished.

Heck, even Luke himself was naturally using the force to a crazy degree without training without even knowing it, given that he was regularly hitting 2 meter womp rats in a flying speeder.... and he thought that was easy! He had no idea that was considered impossible until the guy next to him thought it was an impossible shot.

It's not super mega badass beats all enemies feat by any means, but still impressive.

That's like being a really good 3 point shooter. Not nearly as impossible as what Rey pulled of.

It just attempted to do that with the whole book burning and Kylo speech.

There is a difference between taking a a warrior and floating an apple. I don't recall super stus and sues like Rey in the EU existing as Jedi or even Sith.

In star Wars? Outside of SW in important franchises of the scale of Star Wars?

How? The purpose of the book burning scene isn't destroying the past or the precepts of Star Wars (hell, the books aren't even burned because Rey has them). It's because Luke is *obsessed* with the past to the point where he's consumed by it and the burning of the tree is Yoda's way of telling him to let go.

Also Kylo Ren is the villain. You're not exactly supposed to AGREE with what he says.

As for Force savants in the EU... I mean, there's Darth Zannah from the Bane series who instinctively used the Force to kill two fully trained Jedi Knights when she was like... six years old? Karr Vastor from the Clone Wars comics who was never trained but whose natural affinity with the Force was so great that he fought Mace Windu to a draw. Corran Horn from the X-Wing novels who used a mind-trick on a Stormtrooper without knowing what he was doing or how he was doing it. Then of course there's one of the biggest EU favorites of them all, Kyle Katarn, who defeated seven Dark Jedi (one of whom was a former Jedi Master) with basically no training at all. The list goes on but those are the ones that stick out the most in my mind.

So because he went hermit because he failed the library needs to burn?

No other Sith ever tried to throw away the Light and dark minus Kreia but that was acually compelling. Also Rey seemed intrigued by the concept.

I assume she did nto become a master killer at 6 it just meant to show something about her character not set her up as an unberSue. Kar Vastor grew up being surrounded by Force users.

He was in a book, not in comics.

I assume Corran did not beat a Sith Lord days after.

Didn't Katarn have a Force Ghost guiding him more closely?

[KashyBoy101]

So because he went hermit because he failed the library needs to burn?

No other Sith ever tried to throw away the Light and dark minus Kreia but that was acually compelling. Also Rey seemed intrigued by the concept.

Again, the library didn't burn. The tree did. The actual *contents* of the library are still intact because Rey swiped them and stored them on the Falcon. The burning of the tree is a purely symbolic gesture for Luke's benefit.

Kylo isn't throwing away the concepts of Light and Dark. Light and Dark are bigger and more ubiquitous than the organizations and power structures that represent them. But you are correct that Kylo Ren is no Kreia. Kreia grew to hate the Force itself because her deterministic worldview clashes with the existence of destiny. Kylo's motivations are far more childish, and that's definitely by design. He's tired of always trying and failing to live up to the past, so in an effort to move beyond it he tries to burn the past down. The problem is that you can't move beyond the past if you're obsessed with it to the point of trying to kill it. Those two things are mutually exclusive (which, ironically, is the same problem Luke has). His motivations are entirely selfish and self-contradicting (which is the point).

And of course Rey is tempted; He's offering her the thing the thing she's always wanted. It wouldn't be Star Wars if the hero wasn't tempted by the villain at some point. Rey and Kylo are two halves of a protagonist. They both want the same thing; approval and validation. Kylo because he feels crushed by the weight of his own family's legacy, and Rey because she was *abandoned* by her family. The problem is that they both keep trying to obtain it through other people; Kylo through the legacy of Vader and Rey through the legend of her idol Luke Skywalker, ie, they keep looking for EXTERNAL validation when what they need is INTERNAL validation. Kylo offers her external validation in it's most abusively naked form ("You come from nothing. You ARE nothing. But not to ME.") and she ultimately rejects it, likely as a realization of what was foreshadowed in her vision in the cave, that the only person who can actually give her what she's looking for is herself.

[clearspira]

So because he went hermit because he failed the library needs to burn?

No other Sith ever tried to throw away the Light and dark minus Kreia but that was acually compelling. Also Rey seemed intrigued by the concept.

Again, the library didn't burn. The tree did. The actual *contents* of the library are still intact because Rey swiped them and stored them on the Falcon. The burning of the tree is a purely symbolic gesture for Luke's benefit.

Kylo isn't throwing away the concepts of Light and Dark. Kylo is tired of failing to live up to the past so in an effort to move beyond it he tries to burn the past down, but the problem is that you can't move beyond the past if you're obsessed with it to the point of trying to kill it. His motivations are entirely selfish and self-contradicting (which is the point).

And of course Rey is tempted; He's offering her the thing the thing she's always wanted. It wouldn't be Star Wars if the hero wasn't tempted by the villain at some point. Rey and Kylo are two halves of a protagonist. They both want the same thing; approval and validation. Kylo because he feels crushed by the weight of his own legacy, and Rey because she was abandoned by her parents. The problem is that they both keep trying to obtain it through other people; Kylo through the legacy of Vader and Rey through the legend of her idol Luke Skywalker, ie, they keep looking for EXTERNAL validation when what they need is INTERNAL validation. Kylo offers her external validation in it's most abusively naked form ("You come from nothing. You ARE nothing. But not to ME.") and she ultimately rejects it, likely as a realization of what was foreshadowed in her vision in the cave, that the only person who can actually give her what she's looking for is herself.

Why is Luke her idol? One of my many problems with Disney Star Wars is the time scale. From the start of Force Awakens to the end of The Last Jedi, mere DAYS pass. And it is stated in FA that the Force, The Jedi, and what Luke did are all rumour by this point (which is ridiculous itself after a mere thirty years have passed although A New Hope committed a similar sin given how Han was old enough to have been a kid around the fall of the Jedi so there is no reason for him to doubt the Force). She has not known Luke or Han or Leia or Chewie long enough for him to be an idol.

(Incidentally, this time scale is also why Rey's rise from nothing to badass Force warrior has had many people crying ''oh come the fuck on.'' Its not that she's a woman, its because she is a woman that in DAYS is now on the same level as Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were in Revenge of the Sith despite having trained for decades and decade longer than her respectively. It feels forced - pun intended.)

[KashyBoy101]

So because he went hermit because he failed the library needs to burn?

No other Sith ever tried to throw away the Light and dark minus Kreia but that was acually compelling. Also Rey seemed intrigued by the concept.

Again, the library didn't burn. The tree did. The actual *contents* of the library are still intact because Rey swiped them and stored them on the Falcon. The burning of the tree is a purely symbolic gesture for Luke's benefit.

Kylo isn't throwing away the concepts of Light and Dark. Kylo is tired of failing to live up to the past so in an effort to move beyond it he tries to burn the past down, but the problem is that you can't move beyond the past if you're obsessed with it to the point of trying to kill it. His motivations are entirely selfish and self-contradicting (which is the point).

And of course Rey is tempted; He's offering her the thing the thing she's always wanted. It wouldn't be Star Wars if the hero wasn't tempted by the villain at some point. Rey and Kylo are two halves of a protagonist. They both want the same thing; approval and validation. Kylo because he feels crushed by the weight of his own legacy, and Rey because she was abandoned by her parents. The problem is that they both keep trying to obtain it through other people; Kylo through the legacy of Vader and Rey through the legend of her idol Luke Skywalker, ie, they keep looking for EXTERNAL validation when what they need is INTERNAL validation. Kylo offers her external validation in it's most abusively naked form ("You come from nothing. You ARE nothing. But not to ME.") and she ultimately rejects it, likely as a realization of what was foreshadowed in her vision in the cave, that the only person who can actually give her what she's looking for is herself.

Why is Luke her idol? One of my many problems with Disney Star Wars is the time scale. From the start of Force Awakens to the end of The Last Jedi, mere DAYS pass. And it is stated in FA that the Force, The Jedi, and what Luke did are all rumour by this point (which is ridiculous itself after a mere thirty years have passed although A New Hope committed a similar sin given how Han was old enough to have been a kid around the fall of the Jedi so there is no reason for him to doubt the Force). She has not known Luke or Han or Leia or Chewie long enough for him to be an idol.

(Incidentally, this time scale is also why Rey's rise from nothing to badass Force warrior has had many people crying ''oh come the fuck on.'' Its not that she's a woman, its because she is a woman that in DAYS is now on the same level as Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were in Revenge of the Sith despite having trained for decades and decade longer than her respectively. It feels forced - pun intended.)

It's established in TFA that Rey grew up hearing stories and tall tales about the events of the original trilogy, ie, she's the insert character for the Star Wars fanbase. Most of it is communicated visually or through short-hand; All the self-made "Star Wars toys" in her AT-AT house, the way she geeks out over Han and the Falcon (and the story about the Kessel Run), the childlike look of awe and wonderment when Han tells her that the Jedi and the Force were real, and during her conversations with Luke, etc.

It's pretty natural she'd look to a story like Star Wars to keep herself going growing up alone on a planet like Jakku.

[RobbyB1982]

Why is Luke her idol? One of my many problems with Disney Star Wars is the time scale. From the start of Force Awakens to the end of The Last Jedi, mere DAYS pass. And it is stated in FA that the Force, The Jedi, and what Luke did are all rumour by this point (which is ridiculous itself after a mere thirty years have passed although A New Hope committed a similar sin given how Han was old enough to have been a kid around the fall of the Jedi so there is no reason for him to doubt the Force). She has not known Luke or Han or Leia or Chewie long enough for him to be an idol.

Not really. Consider, it's a really, REALLY big universe. You wouldn't know that from how the spinoffs cram in countless recognizables, but in theory, infinite universe with hundreds of planets with sentients on them and billions upon trillions of inhabitants.

How many jedi were there in the prequels? At a time when they hadn't faced a real enemy in forever and knew only peace? A couple hundred, tops. We as an audience follow them specifically so it feels like there's a lot, but... there weren't that many. Enough that one raid could wipe out most of them in an afternoon, and Vader could wipe out the stragglers by himself shortly after.

Sure, it's one thing to know historically Jedi existed, but entirely plausible that you've never seen one, or even met someone that's seen one, especially when they've been extinct for decades. And if you haven't seen a Jedi working in action, it's easy to just write off as fairy tales. How many times have you seen a duck billed platypus outside of a zoo? And especially when there's a story of ONE Jedi who blew up the death start and killed the emporer and restored balance and etc... Luke obviously would have been blown up and made to be even bigger and more legendary than he actually was.

For a real world example, thirty five years ago (more recently than when Star Wars was made!) the last Delorean car was produced in 1982. They were a big deal. How many have you seen? You know they exist almost almost entirely due to a single movie trilogy made a few years later that made them iconic. But if not for Back to the Future, probably no one would really remember that kind of car really existed. Sure, there'd be photographs and a couple still working even today, but its something you're just never going to actually see unless you really look into it.

Or what about Phone Booths and Police Call boxes fifty years ago? The things that were so ubiquitous the Doctor's tardis immitated one as "the most commonplace thing imaginable" and now they don't really exist. Clark Kent entering a booth to change into Superman is iconic but... no longer real.

And those are real world tangible things we can prove existed. THat's not trying to say "My grandpa once saw a man flying and using telekenetic powers, it's true."

Take that and amplify it over a galactic scale and... yeah. Its super easy to see the Jedi fading into myth pretty fast when there weren't any left, even with evidence they used to be around.

(Incidentally, this time scale is also why Rey's rise from nothing to badass Force warrior has had many people crying ''oh come the fuck on.'' Its not that she's a woman, its because she is a woman that in DAYS is now on the same level as Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were in Revenge of the Sith despite having trained for decades and decade longer than her respectively. It feels forced - pun intended.)

How long did Luke train with Obi Wan and Yoda? He trained with Obi Wan for one session on the way to the death star... had no further training between then and the next film, and then with Yoda for how long? It's hard to say specifically due to time skips and travel time, but given what we saw Han and Leia doing, it was possibly only a few days... and a few weeks at absolute most. Then Luke ran off, training incomplete, got beaten by Vader, and then somehow "was a master" and made his own lightsaber, even without further training for Yoda.

Luke had almost no training time either, we just accept that he did because we saw him do it first.

Rey didn't do anything at master level. She fought a guy who had already been shot in the chest by a super powerful crossbow, fought another guy, and was super confused and messed up after having killed his own father and not thinking straight. She didn't solo peak Vader her first day or anything.

[clearspira]

(Incidentally, this time scale is also why Rey's rise from nothing to badass Force warrior has had many people crying ''oh come the fuck on.'' Its not that she's a woman, its because she is a woman that in DAYS is now on the same level as Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were in Revenge of the Sith despite having trained for decades and decade longer than her respectively. It feels forced - pun intended.)

How long did Luke train with Obi Wan and Yoda? He trained with Obi Wan for one session on the way to the death star... had no further training between then and the next film, and then with Yoda for how long? It's hard to say specifically due to time skips and travel time, but given what we saw Han and Leia doing, it was possibly only a few days... and a few weeks at absolute most. Then Luke ran off, training incomplete, got beaten by Vader, and then somehow "was a master" and made his own lightsaber, even without further training for Yoda.

Luke had almost no training time either, we just accept that he did because we saw him do it first.

Rey didn't do anything at master level. She fought a guy who had already been shot in the chest by a super powerful crossbow, fought another guy, and was super confused and messed up after having killed his own father and not thinking straight. She didn't solo peak Vader her first day or anything.

No, I don't think you realise just how absurd this time scale is.
The Original Trilogy takes place over four YEARS; with ANH being year 0 ABY, ESB being year 3, and ROJ being year 4.
This means that it took Luke 3 years of training without a master to reach the point where he could see ghosts, summon the lightsaber, and ''kind of'' fight Vader, and a further year of training after meeting Yoda to reach master level.

Rey made the same four year journey IN A WEEK.

Hell, lets take this one step further: the Prequel Trilogy AKA the rise of the Chosen One who had a midichlorian count higher than Yoda when he was a small child spans 13 years. That's 10 between PM and AOTC, and 3 between AOTC and ROTS. And that WAS under the full time tutelage of a seasoned Jedi Master. And yet he seems no more powerful than Rey is despite this.

Both Anakin and Luke worked their ass off to do what was handed to Rey on a platter.

[Yukaphile]

The real reason, of course, is lazy scripting supplemented by cheap and overexpansive CGI. Now you can really sell superhuman effects in the way Lucas probably wanted to back in the 1970s, confirmed by the prequels, so... there you go. As a result of this lazy environment, I don't think a lot of writers these days really think through these shortcomings.