Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm
Essentially all the character stories suffer the structure problem
The Acts tend to be self contained arcs and any overarching is mostly contained to one character or trying to hot glue them together.
Lets be blunt
Bioware just SUCKS at villains cause it plays against their strength, Unless a character is gonna join your party.
Bioware is all about the player empowerment fantasy, and having competent villain well runs counter to that. BW likes to let the player either back sass or pwn their opponents
KOTOR 1 and 2 main bads were scary and competent.
... 1: KOTOR 2 was not written by bioware, and even then Traya is only good in that she's a Palpy clone that people like to buy that her Darwnism isn't motivated by spite
2. Malak is a joke of a villain that the game itself mocks
"When you rule by fear, your greatest weakness is the one who's no longer afraid."
Traya was quite different from Palaptine. She fulfilled the "evil mentor" role yes, but her goals and motivations were quite distinct and more complex than simply wanting power.
Malak wasn't a joke. He was a blunt instrument when compared to Revan yes, but he was still scary and competent and his violence only made him dangerous, plus scratch the surface you'll find that while he was inferior to Revan he was still quite intelligent and formidable in his own right. Revan himself was still technically a villain of KOTOR 1 as well and he was built up as awesome even if it turned out you were him the whole time.
Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:48 pm2. Malak is a joke of a villain that the game itself mocks
Was just about to write that. Malak is not displayed to be a competent villain. His only success really is kicking Darth Revan when he was already down for the count. Otherwise he's a complete tool to Darth Revan and continues to be nothing but a spoiled child that just so happens to know more than most everyone else and thus is the strongest one around for the time being. But his own downfall is already visibly ahead. He's no leader, he lacks vision and where Revan tactically sacrificed people to gain an advantage elsewhere, Malak just throws away his forces.
As far Traya, she's divisive. I can see why people don't buy her philosophy and, honestly, it's all there in her name, she is a traitor. She tells you that she is. She's hiding behind smoke and mirrors and admits to doing so when talking to you, even encouraging you to do the same. But then again, that is what makes her so appealing, if you ask me. She could be plotting to get back to power or she really could buy what she preaches herself. For all we know, she could either be completely wrong and insane, be just plotting her own return to power or she may have the most poignant point about the nature of the Force that anyone ever pointed out.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
With regards to Traya, the main problem I see with her is that she was a soapbox for the writer to express his criticisms of the Force and the Jedi and everything else that bothered him about Star Wars, especially since many of his criticisms are based on misconceptions. If you put aside that the writer himself seems to believe she is sort of right, she is otherwise a fantastic villain imo.
And they are ALL still better villains than those in TOR.
What Traya says is absolute truth. How a culture is defined is through their conflicts, whether in war or in peacetime. And sometimes people are such slaves to their beliefs that their values rule them, not the other way around. Or that in some cases, some people should fight their own battles.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:29 pm
What Traya says is absolute truth. How a culture is defined is through their conflicts, whether in war or in peacetime. And sometimes people are such slaves to their beliefs that their values rule them, not the other way around. Or that in some cases, some people should fight their own battles.
You do realize you are one of the people Traya's philosophy requires to be culled right?
"When you rule by fear, your greatest weakness is the one who's no longer afraid."
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:29 pm
What Traya says is absolute truth. How a culture is defined is through their conflicts, whether in war or in peacetime. And sometimes people are such slaves to their beliefs that their values rule them, not the other way around. Or that in some cases, some people should fight their own battles.
Which is why the best response is to continue following the Jedi way, the Lightside, and working to build peace.
It makes her worldview as bankrupt and empty as she is.
Her philosophy fits quite well to people who are existentialist/nihilistic like myself, who don't see the point in anything, and just watch the freak show we call a world unfold from an outsider perspective with scorn and sadness.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:35 pm
Her philosophy fits quite well to people who are existentialist/nihilistic like myself, who don't see the point in anything, and just watch the freak show we call a world unfold from an outsider perspective with scorn and sadness.
The LS Exile, though, can take either two views:
1. That the Jedi Way is just flat out right even if it's not perfect and to put them down for trying to do better is immaterial.
2. The Prachett anti-nihilism. "If nothing you do matters then all that matters is what you do."
The game notably gives you no chance to side with Traya.
EIther way you embrace LS or DS (in which case you disappoint Traya in a different way)
Or you can side with Kreia. That is an option too. Though many cases she'll call out the Sith for being mindless psychotics just as much as the Jedi for being selfless idiots.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
