My Journey Through Babylon 5

[Yukaphile]

Man, "The War Prayer" was a damned fine episode with a lot of charged political themes. Felt very bad Susan was almost about to bone a hatemonger. I can only imagine how horrified I'd feel. And once again the music continues to wow and inspire.

B5 is proving to be pretty amazing so far. Onto the next episode!

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I got REAL tired of Star Trek hand waving ideas like mysticism and religion away as superstition as those kinds of unexplained plot aspects do a lot to add intrigue to a series.

And then there were Q and Trelane. I always found that aspect of Star Trek rather... inconsistent. I'm an atheist and there's exactly one thing that could feasibly convince me of a God or gods existing and that would be a being like them. That this never really gets adressed in Star Trek is baffling.

Yeah I despise the "no such thing as Space Jesus" trope.

[Yukaphile]

Hey, while I'm working through my issues, um... I'm stopping by sometimes to still leave my thoughts on B5. I've so far advanced into "TKO," and you know what? While I'm not... personally attracted to Susan Ivanova the way I was to Laurel Takashima, I do like her, a lot, and I consider her a very worthy replacement to Takashima, and a definite asset to the show, especially on commentator of human issues, like Mr. Garibaldi is sometimes. My impression so far is that they take an interesting twist with her here, in that they present her, her kin, those close to her, and in her interactions with others with the "long-suffering nature" of the Russian people, so on and so forth, which is a great way to hold true to reality and the long hardships they've suffered, but at the same time, they break outside those norms we have today, like Ivanova possibly entering a gay relationship (SF Debris implied ship tease with her and Talia) when they are most assuredly homophobic today and in the past, and she's a regular spitfire, while Russia is about conservative women submitting to men, which... I'm uncertain whether or not to call that misrepresentation? But even if so, it's still contradictory in a way I can relate to, so warmly written with genuine human feeling, it's like the best of stuff that comes out of Trek. Those are my feelings right now.

[G-Man]

I feel as if G'Kar should have pressed forward and told the truth about the atrocities Londo's grandfather committed. Yeah, he knows, but it's a matter of historical truth. People should know. As long as that happens, there can never be a free and open society. At all. Just look at all the countries around the world that suppress the truth to this day and deny their citizens that precious right to question the crimes of their forefathers and discuss it as civilized people wanting to atone for it. It's a right we all deserve.

At this point, G'Kar is much less interested in abstract morality and much more interested in "what is going to achieve my ends the most efficiently and quickly."

Well, I thought she was okay. Susan seems too lifeless to me, having just watched the first episode. Then again, she has a fascinating backstory, what with the Psi Corps stuff, so I can't wait to see that unravel like an onion.

I started watching Babylon 5 regularly at the beginning of the second season (technically at the last episode of the first season, which aired the week before the second season premiere and several weeks after the previous original episode). I didn't watch most of season 1 until B5 moved to TNT (after the end of season 4). So I am not certain how I would have felt about Susan had I seen MotFL without having seen seasons 2-4 first. But yeah, she gets a lot better,

Something to keep in mind about human telepaths in B5 is that they are, in general, dangerously aggressive. Think of them along the lines of people who aspire to be Plato's Stepchildren rather than generally cooperative (if obnoxious) Betazoids. Some degree of control or separation is necessary to prevent them from taking over society. Of course, Psicorp ultimately backfired as a control mechanism and gave teeps a powerbase from which to take over society, but something needed to be done to keep them from enslaving the rest of the human race.

Something also to keep in mind is that in B5 almost all of the races have telepaths and non-telepaths, whereas in Star Trek generally telepathy was a racial characteristic. So you did not really have telepath-mundane conflicts within a species in Star Trek - or else most of those conflicts have already been decided genocidally.

[Yukaphile]

That is true, it's very consistent to G'Kar's character so far.

Well, Susan's lost that bit of "lifelessness" to me, and I can see her as a valued and great member of the cast. I dunno why SF Debris didn't like the wake scene... well, okay, I think I can, but sue me, I liked the sitting Shiva. LOL. And it's more respectful to real life ethnic traditions than Voyager was for Chakotay's fake American Indian rites.

And maybe it's how other people perceive them which leads them to lash out? If you treat someone as a monster, they internalize it, and become the monster. There's a reason the Let Me Be Evil trope exists. It's also that most humans would exploit this. It's still an abuse of state power, throwing someone in jail over crimes they didn't commit, or drafting them. The idea of drugs is sound, but... it shouldn't be the kind that leave you lifeless. They need to be the kind that still makes life worth living.

Just dropping by to say the music as Gajic recalls how he was led on a search for the Holy Grail is just... beautiful. So soothing, so tender... this is how music in Trek should have always been. Grrrrrr, what the hell, Rick? Also reminds me of Fate/Stay Night, and how beautiful Kawaii Kenji's score was. It moves, you, makes you feel. I love that.

[Yukaphile]

Just finished "A Race Through Dark Places," and... WOW. Here's my thoughts.

One, is this where the implied lesbian relationship between Talia and Susan begins? Wow, you can tell Russia has changed in the past 200 years given they are virulently homophobic in today's world, but then again, these are lesbians, which... I hate to say it, people find those more culturally acceptable, more "innocent" than a full-blown gay male couple. Why is that? Anyway, I'm satisfied with the idea that 200 years from now could have bred huge cultural shifts in Russia, so it's a non-issue for me. I'm curious to see where this will go.

It looked for a moment as if Talia had betrayed the runaway telepaths to the corps, and... damn. I really hated her for a second. I'd suspected her of being a mindless Psi Corps drone, but... that would have been too much to accept until the reveal that they were fooling Bester. And speaking of, it's great to see him return! Walter Koenig makes such a deliciously evil bad guy, it's great to see him get a huge role in a major sci-fi series again. Oh, if only his partner could have been George Takei! XD

Something that REALLY pissed me off is when they were talking about Psi Corps impregnating women against their will, the woman in question relaying this acts sad she never saw "her baby" again and it's implied she would have kept it. This happens so fucking often in fiction, that a rape victim MUST keep her baby, probably out of overpowering cultural pressure as to how we view gender roles and women as mothers in our society, that it's frankly disgusting, and it just keeps happening so often I'm getting sick of it. In TNG, Tasha Yar wanted to escape with her rape baby, and that doomed her. In Animorphs, twins conceived under Yeerk control were treated as no more differently than if the hosts were free, and Allison Kim tried to rescue them, honoring the mutual agreement the four beings reached, humans and Yeerk. The only one I can think of to subvert this fictional expectation is Tom Riddle, father of Voldemort, a man, and he's treated as a horrible snob, which fair enough, he was, but I see all sorts of victim-blaming that he should have "stayed around for his child." That child which was conceived without his permission in a loveless union. Even a snob has a right not to be raped and raise a child against their will! ARE PEOPLE REALLY THIS FUCKING COLD AND CRUEL?! That they judge a rape victim for giving up a baby conceived in suffering?! GAH! I hate the world sometimes.

Other than that, a solid episode. Moving on to the next one!

[FaxModem1]

Well, Susan's lost that bit of "lifelessness" to me, and I can see her as a valued and great member of the cast. I dunno why SF Debris didn't like the wake scene... well, okay, I think I can, but sue me, I liked the sitting Shiva. LOL. And it's more respectful to real life ethnic traditions than Voyager was for Chakotay's fake American Indian rites.

I think the big issue was the huge tonal shift between Susan grieving her father intercut with two guys punching the crap out of each other. It's too much of a switch in emotional experience to grip, from family character emotions to romping action fist fight. And it's not symbolically distant from each other, as a certain church scene in season 3, or the baptism in The Godfather, it's the A plot and the B plot at war with each other for what you should be feeling. That said, I really enjoy the Rabbi's conversation with Susan about whether or not a Centauri fish is kosher, and whether or not he is allowed to eat it.

Just finished "A Race Through Dark Places," and... WOW. Here's my thoughts.

One, is this where the implied lesbian relationship between Talia and Susan begins? Wow, you can tell Russia has changed in the past 200 years given they are virulently homophobic in today's world, but then again, these are lesbians, which... I hate to say it, people find those more culturally acceptable, more "innocent" than a full-blown gay male couple. Why is that? Anyway, I'm satisfied with the idea that 200 years from now could have bred huge cultural shifts in Russia, so it's a non-issue for me. I'm curious to see where this will go.

The big reason JMS makes is that after meeting aliens, a lot of old differences with humans started to disappear and become non-important. Of course, we still have issues relating to whether or not one is a telepath or the issue of Martian independence.

It looked for a moment as if Talia had betrayed the runaway telepaths to the corps, and... damn. I really hated her for a second. I'd suspected her of being a mindless Psi Corps drone, but... that would have been too much to accept until the reveal that they were fooling Bester. And speaking of, it's great to see him return! Walter Koenig makes such a deliciously evil bad guy, it's great to see him get a huge role in a major sci-fi series again. Oh, if only his partner could have been George Takei! XD

Talia's path is very interesting. And this really is the start of their relationship, or what could be shown on 90s TV with the network and the WB breathing down JMS's neck. A lot of it will be subtext. If the show was made today, it'd probably be a bit more open, rather than them being coy.

[Yukaphile]

Was JMS a Star Trek fan? Because that's the Star Trek ethos, that learning about aliens and ascending to space will melt away our artificial divisions. Yet according to "Acts of Sacrifice," the Lumati are meant to represent the Federation, so... it seems rather insulting to say he is. Of course, Warhammer 40,000 proves that once you meet aliens, those differences go away so you could replay them on a galactic scale, with prejudice and extermination against aliens now! And it also doesn't address the issue of misogyny either, which some could arguably debate is worse than racism.

Also, I see what you meant about subtext that could have meant more. In one scene between Ivanova and Talia, it might have led to a passionate kiss in today's climate. Oh if only, eh?

Just finished "Divided Loyalties," AND HOLY SHIT. I had no idea Talia was a sleeper. I feel so sorry for her. And according to the wiki, she never comes back either past Bester making a reference to her, so... wow. What a shitty way to write off a main character. Couldn't they at least have mentioned her a bit more? Like maybe had them try to save her or something? Once the programming asserted itself? I feel a bit sad, tbh, to see her go. Though I'm intrigued as to what it is Kosh saw in her mind relating to her sleeper programming. Time will tell, huh?

I was also shocked to learn Ivanova was a telepath. No wonder she hates and fears Psi Corps so much. She didn't wanna be drafted against her will. It also puts her actions in "Eyes" into a new context. God, she's such a cool character!

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Overall, JMS did an excellent job handling all the wild stuff thrown at him, from near cancellations to the actors complaining about their roles or leaving to pursue their own ventures.

The Talia reveal is a bit clunky, but it wasn't planned to end that way. In the beginning the sleeper idea was planned for Takashima. The plan still wasn't to get rid of Talia, but JMS had a "trap door" prepared for each character in case the actor left the show for some reason. Andrea Thompson wanted out, and so the backup plan was enacted.

With all that in mind, I thought the Talia as a sleeper reveal went fairly well. It might seem obvious to many of us now, but that's with over two decades of hindsight. I do think Talia's effort damaged some future storylines that were originally intended for her character, but I won't get into those spoilers.

[G-Man]

Overall, JMS did an excellent job handling all the wild stuff thrown at him, from near cancellations to the actors complaining about their roles or leaving to pursue their own ventures.

The Talia reveal is a bit clunky, but it wasn't planned to end that way. In the beginning the sleeper idea was planned for Takashima. The plan still wasn't to get rid of Talia, but JMS had a "trap door" prepared for each character in case the actor left the show for some reason. Andrea Thompson wanted out, and so the backup plan was enacted.

With all that in mind, I thought the Talia as a sleeper reveal went fairly well. It might seem obvious to many of us now, but that's with over two decades of hindsight. I do think Talia's effort damaged some future storylines that were originally intended for her character, but I won't get into those spoilers.

As I understand it, if Andrea Thompson had not wanted to leave, they still would have had the "sleeper" plot, but would have found a way to restore her, presumably using the recording of her mind that Kosh made in Deathwalker or some of the powers that Jason Ironheart had given her.