My Journey Through Babylon 5

[MissKittyFantastico]

Was JMS a Star Trek fan?

I've gathered he's a fan of some of it - there's certainly some fond reverence for 60s Trek, they were delighted to have people like Walter Koenig and Majel Barrett drop by - but there was a bit of a fandom war between B5 and Trek (DS9, mainly). There are various stories about who did what to piss off who - a longstanding story was that JMS had pitched his idea to Paramount, who'd turned him down then went and made DS9 (you get lists of similarities like 'the station is next to a wormhole/jump gate' and 'they get a warship partway through'), although on the other hand, as well as being fans of Walter and Majel and the like there's plenty of anecdotes of the B5 and DS9 crews actually respecting one another's shows at the time, so I feel like it was more a fan thing than something from the creators themselves. Seemed pretty bitter at the time, although I guess nowadays it'd just be par for the course.

JMS does have trouble walking away from the chance to tweak peoples' noses though, so you get bits like the Lumati, or Ivanova complaining "We're not some deep space franchise, we mean something!" (although I believe that was Peter David's line, JMS just thought it was hilarious and left it in). Stuff like that didn't exactly help damp down the flame wars going on while the shows were airing - and it's worth remembering that JMS was very active online all throughout production, which as well as making for a treasure trove of background information on the making of the show, also put him right out in the open for Trekkies with a superiority complex who couldn't wait to point out, directly to him, how B5 was just riding Trek's coattails, which you can imagine would be irritating when he nearly literally sweat blood on a daily basis to make B5. There were moments he came off as maybe a bit more vehemently defensive of B5 than needed, but you can hardly blame the man.

[Yukaphile]

I can respect the trouble he had to go through, though I do get upset when people so thoughtlessly accuse DS9 of ripping off B5. As it sounds, the staff respected one another, and it seems more a fan war than an actual franchise war, and with that said, having now seen two seasons, I can safely say they are two completely different shows. "Rip off" implies there wasn't hard work that went into DS9, and as it stands, a lot of TNG's most competent writers went to DS9 instead of Voyager (another reason I'd argue Voyager did so poorly when it's stuck between Taylor and Braga and Berman), even if DS9 "borrowed" from B5's genesis. Perhaps you can say B5 is the underdog, but in the end, what does it matter? They're both quality, and I like them. I was just referring to making the Federation super smug assholes who let whole civilizations die because they're genetically "unclean." That... is hard to accept. Yes, I know about the Prime Directive and the dogmatism towards that later on, but regardless, it still feels wrong to treat the "Federation allegory" that way on your show. Especially given the way the Lumati ambassador sexually harasses poor Ivanova and that god-awful condom joke, and that's one thing I could never see anyone in the Federation doing - except maybe on TOS, during Gene's era.

[FaxModem1]

That's more an assertion made by fans than one confirmed by JMS. They act more equivalent to Ayn Rand Objectivists than followers of the Prime Directive, in my opinion.

[Yukaphile]

I thought it was fishy when I visited the wiki, and it never mentioned this. As I said, the Federation humans have a lot of problems, and blind dogmatism in pursuit of a higher calling is one of them, but to claim they're anything like those freaks is just... insulting.

[Yukaphile]

Just finished "Passing Through Gethsemane," and HOLY SHIT. That was intense and tragic. One of B5's best episodes.

First off, I wanna say... we all know my issues with WWII criminals. What's the difference between them here and, say, Charlie and Malcolm? Namely, that those two men were found and judged by their peers. That's justice. And they didn't attempt a lame and token effort at penance by confessing their sins anonymously in a book decades later spin-doctoring themselves as the real victims, "lost to the madness of war." They spend their whole lives making up for it. I think the death of personality is a very sufficient punishment for said crimes, with Charlie and then later Malcolm. Hell, Edward died for atonement. That's powerful stuff. I feel as if these men had any real guilt, they'd speak openly, and face the public condemnation that's inevitable as a woman and child abuser, and let people speak of their deeds honestly while not hiding in the shadows. That's not atonement. Not real penance. That's cowardice. That's not redemption. What Edward did... was. And I felt very strongly for him, a former murderer. Just... DAMN. B5 is AMAZING.

[Yukaphile]

Just saw "Voices of Authority." How is it possible this naked woman was sexier than Seven's nude scene? Then again, their blatant pandering turned me off, lol.

[MissKittyFantastico]

You have to feel for Brad Dourif though - I imagine him getting the pitch, "So the role we want you for is a monk, he's kind, generous, humble, everyone likes him-" his eyes light up, this sounds like fun "-he used to be a brutal serial killer-" sigh of course he did...

With the Lumati, I don't feel like the intention was so much to criticise the Federation as a whole in all its aspects, just the 'non intervention' philosophy being taken as gospel, the way for instance 'Pen Pals' did, justifying not only dodging any moral responsibility to help someone in need, but feeling smug about it. It's basically the same point Trekkies make about when the PD's written badly. (For what it's worth, I think the line in the sand between the Lumati and the Federation is pretty clear in one regard, the Lumati feel their superiority absolves them of responsibility for the hardships of 'lesser' species, whereas fundamentally the Prime Directive exists because the Federation doesn't think it's superior - it's a reminder not to interfere because we can't guarantee we won't screw it up somehow.)

I'm in a minority of B5 fans, I think, of not finding Ivanova's Human Style Sex that funny - not for problematic subject matter reasons, it just doesn't make me laugh particularly. The interpreter (Taq?) saves it though, his little 'well played' expression is worth the scene. For what it's worth on that whole subplot, I think I recall seeing JMS say that if Sheridan had been giving the tour, the ambassador would've wanted to seal the deal with him the same way. Not that you really get points for thinking about not doing the cliche thing, but it's something.

[Yukaphile]

Type-cast as always. LOL.

Very true, and make no mistake, I certainly think that's a sign of their moral cowardice, when it's a matter of natural selection, rather than taking care not to impose our values on two squabbling groups. It does seem rather Socially Darwinist sometimes. So I do get that.

And well, my initial feelings aside, I've finally grown very attracted to Ivanova. I even had a, erm... certain dream about her yesterday, haha, so let's just leave it at that. Though if real and we ended up together (LUCKY ME! ) I guess I'd have a Jewish child, huh? I do know when the mother is Jewish, that's what's most important if the child is Jewish. I remember that All in the Family episode where Archie said, "I mean, I know he's nothing, but don't he mean something?"

I finished "Severed Dreams" and OMG THE BATTLE WAS BRUTAL. HOLY SHIT QUOTIENT does NOT cover it. It's like something out of Star Wars!

I am on the next episode, and well... Chuck hasn't covered this stuff, so it's good to see it all for myself. On the other hand, I'm glad to see B5 has finally fully embraced its serialized nature. You can't just secede from Earth and have it not matter the next episode. On Voyager... yeah, that's how they'd roll. Whether with a literal reset button or pretending it never happened. Why, Voyager, why?

[Yukaphile]

"I think I loved Talia." Wow, SF Debris wasn't kidding about the implied lesbian relationship... if only this wasn't the 1990s. But then if it wasn't the 1990s, it wouldn't be as epic as it was. It'd be more progressive, but it'd lack a solid center to tell a good story.

[Yukaphile]

Oh... damn... naked Ivanova right in the start of the next episode...



But that makes two episodes now with naked women, lol. You can tell this was written by a man.