Should Disney Adapted The Thrawn Trilogy?

[Jonathan101]

The reason is politics.

At the very least, I've seen people defend Kylo Ren as a villain precisely because he was weak, saying that this is exactly what makes him great. They thought it made Kylo Ren relatable to be an angry young failure throwing dangerous temper tantrums because that sort of person is more realistic than an intimidating Darth Vader type, and it further sends the message that evil acts tough but it really impotent and can thus be overcome.

The Force Awakens was obviously meant to be a more "Progressive" Star Wars film, having a black guy and a young woman as the leads with the hope of showing Hollywood that you can do this and still make millions at the box office- and in turn the villains are angry young white men being manipulated by an old and powerful white guy.

But that isn't enough, because progressives and feminists etc. who have been online for long enough inevitably ran into misogynists and trolls (or in some cases, real life killers) who quoted villains like Bane, Joker, Tyler Durden etc. un-ironically and thus got the impression that making strong villains is inherently a bad and dangerous idea, that the point of movies is to send the right message and teach people the right lessons, and this gets muddled when the villain is "cool".

So, Kylo Ren is at once a parody of that sort of angry young white guy who admires "cool" villains (in his case, Vader), and an example of the sort of villain that they think should be in films from now on- dangerous, but weak. In that light, even the death of Snoke might be a sort of statement- the older, "wiser" villain who has all he actual power is in his own way just as impotent and stupid, and killed by the very evil he unleashed.

I'm not saying this as a sort-of anti-Feminist screed; those really were the sort of debates that were happening on YouTube and social media as TFA was being made and ever after, and the sort that informed the development of these movies. It falters in this case because Kylo Ren, despite being a weak villain, is nonetheless more interesting and multi-dimensional than either Finn or Rey, and of course because if Ren and Hux etc. are weak then it's a little hard to take the heroes you are supposed to be rooting for all that seriously.

But if you are a certain sort of fan, with a certain kind of political leaning, you will adore the portrayal of Kylo Ren, because you really do believe that's what evil looks like in the real world. Whether they are right or not depends on how you yourself think villains should be portrayed.

[Karha of Honor]

The reason is politics.

At the very least, I've seen people defend Kylo Ren as a villain precisely because he was weak, since that this is exactly what makes him great. They thought it made Kylo Ren relatable to be an angry young failure throwing dangerous temper tantrums because that sort of person is more realistic than an intimidating Darth Vader type, and it further sends the message that evil acts tough but it really impotent and can thus be overcome.

The Force Awakens was obviously meant to be a more "Progressive" Star Wars film, having a black guy and a young woman as the leads with the hope of showing Hollywood that you can do this and still make millions at the box office- and in turn the villains are angry young white men being manipulated by an old and powerful white guy.

But that isn't enough, because progressives and feminists etc. who have been online for long enough inevitably ran into misogynists and trolls (or in some cases, real life killers) who quoted villains like Bane, Joker, Tyler Durden etc. un-ironically and thus got the impression that making strong villains is inherently a bad and dangerous idea, that the point of movies is to send the right message and teach people the right lessons, and this gets muddled when the villain is "cool".

So, Kylo Ren is at once a parody of that sort of angry young white guy who admires "cool" villains (in his case, Vader), and an example of the sort of villain that they think should be in films from now on- dangerous, but weak. In that light, even the death of Snoke might be a sort of statement- the older, "wiser" villain who has all he actual power is in his own way just as impotent and stupid, and killed by the very evil he unleashed.

I'm not saying this as a sort-of anti-Feminist screed; those really were the sort of debates that were happening on YouTube and social media as TFA was being made and ever after, and the sort that informed the development of these movies. It falters in this case because Kylo Ren, despite being a weak villain, is nonetheless more interesting and multi-dimensional than either Finn or Rey, and of course because if Ren and Hux etc. are weak then it's a little hard to take the heroes you are supposed to be rooting for all that seriously.

But if you are a certain sort of fan, with a certain kind of political leaning, you will adore the portrayal of Kylo Ren, because you really do believe that's what evil looks like in the real world. Whether they are right or not depends on how you yourself think villains should be portrayed.

That is not how evil looks like. Congratulations Disney, you are wrecking a global franchise to serve the online US based Left.

[Wargriffin]

Even if you could Argue Ren being weak is the point

Whats the point in making the First Order as incompetent as COBRA and the Resistance well for some odd reason they are celebrating running away, being reduced to about 20 people and having lost the Galaxy to said guys who are dumber then COBRA

[Jonathan101]

Even if you could Argue Ren being weak is the point

Whats the point in making the First Order as incompetent as COBRA and the Resistance well for some odd reason they are celebrating running away, being reduced to about 20 people and having lost the Galaxy to said guys who are dumber then COBRA

Same reason. The villains must be dangerous but weak, in order to send the message that villains are dangerous but weak.

As for the celebration, well that's more about being relentlessly hopeful in the face of overwhelming Evil, which is something everyone is allowed to do in that film so long as they are not named Luke Skywalker.

I think TLJ also served as something of a cathartic movie for people who had been disillusioned by the rise of the alt-right and Donal Trump etc over the preceding years, hence when at the very end the plucky band of rebels call for assistance from allies old and new and...nobody comes; they are all alone. Because that's probably how they felt when these things happened- that they were the only ones who cared enough to fight against the rise of fascism (or space fascism, in this case). But, they could at least live to fight another day, and for added optimism the "younger generation" can be a new group of rebels even in the present and older generations failed to provide enough of them.

At that point I might be reading too much into things, but that's what I thought the film was going for the first (and last) time I watched it.

[Admiral X]

I'd say it completely undermines an antagonist as being "dangerous" or any kind of a real threat if they are as weak and incompetent as they have been written in the Disney movies. And arguing that they were intentionally made this way isn't doing anything to help that. It kinds of reminds me of old arguments of people defending Shinji Ikari from NGE as being more realistic, but somehow missing the point that he just wasn't very entertaining to watch.

[Karha of Honor]

I'd say it completely undermines an antagonist as being "dangerous" or any kind of a real threat if they are as weak and incompetent as they have been written in the Disney movies. And arguing that they were intentionally made this way isn't doing anything to help that. It kinds of reminds me of old arguments of people defending Shinji Ikari from NGE as being more realistic, but somehow missing the point that he just wasn't very entertaining to watch.

You could make it work, but they certainly failed.

[Jonathan101]

I'd say it completely undermines an antagonist as being "dangerous" or any kind of a real threat if they are as weak and incompetent as they have been written in the Disney movies. And arguing that they were intentionally made this way isn't doing anything to help that. It kinds of reminds me of old arguments of people defending Shinji Ikari from NGE as being more realistic, but somehow missing the point that he just wasn't very entertaining to watch.

Well,I'm not saying I LIKE it or anything, or wouldn't prefer a better villain, but I recognise that they have different artistic goals and tastes.

Unfortunately, the people who want Kylo Ren- like villains- at least for the reasons I'm outling- would honestly look at someone like Thrawn and think "He's a bad villain because he's too competent". Because that's not what they want out of their villains.

They want villains who succeed because not enough people stand up to them other than a plucky band of underdog heroes, and they want underdog heroes who fail because they aren't getting enough support without having many serious flaws of their own.

And anyone who doesn't like it is obviously not being supportive enough.

(slight exaggeration perhaps, but in the ballpark)

[Wargriffin]

Even if you could Argue Ren being weak is the point

Whats the point in making the First Order as incompetent as COBRA and the Resistance well for some odd reason they are celebrating running away, being reduced to about 20 people and having lost the Galaxy to said guys who are dumber then COBRA

I think TLJ also served as something of a cathartic movie for people who had been disillusioned by the rise of the alt-right and Donal Trump etc over the preceding years, hence when at the very end the plucky band of rebels call for assistance from allies old and new and...nobody comes; they are all alone. Because that's probably how they felt when these things happened- that they were the only ones who cared enough to fight against the rise of fascism (or space fascism, in this case). But, they could at least live to fight another day, and for added optimism the "younger generation" can be a new group of rebels even in the present and older generations failed to provide enough of them.

Isn't Catharsis suppose to be you know... enjoyable

But...The thing is when your Villains are stupid and incompetent then the only reason the Heroes lose is they are Somehow DUMBER and even more incompetent.

[Jonathan101]

Even if you could Argue Ren being weak is the point

Whats the point in making the First Order as incompetent as COBRA and the Resistance well for some odd reason they are celebrating running away, being reduced to about 20 people and having lost the Galaxy to said guys who are dumber then COBRA

I think TLJ also served as something of a cathartic movie for people who had been disillusioned by the rise of the alt-right and Donal Trump etc over the preceding years, hence when at the very end the plucky band of rebels call for assistance from allies old and new and...nobody comes; they are all alone. Because that's probably how they felt when these things happened- that they were the only ones who cared enough to fight against the rise of fascism (or space fascism, in this case). But, they could at least live to fight another day, and for added optimism the "younger generation" can be a new group of rebels even in the present and older generations failed to provide enough of them.

Isn't Catharsis suppose to be you know... enjoyable

But...The thing is when your Villains are stupid and incompetent then the only reason the Heroes lose is they are Somehow DUMBER and even more incompetent.

I think what they're going for is that the heroes are smart and competent, but the rest of the galaxy is dumb and incompetent and THAT'S why the First Order gets away with so much.

Of course, the Resistance actually is dumb anyway, but that's besides the point. They'd be dumb no matter who they were up against.

[Wargriffin]

Even if you could Argue Ren being weak is the point

Whats the point in making the First Order as incompetent as COBRA and the Resistance well for some odd reason they are celebrating running away, being reduced to about 20 people and having lost the Galaxy to said guys who are dumber then COBRA

I think TLJ also served as something of a cathartic movie for people who had been disillusioned by the rise of the alt-right and Donal Trump etc over the preceding years, hence when at the very end the plucky band of rebels call for assistance from allies old and new and...nobody comes; they are all alone. Because that's probably how they felt when these things happened- that they were the only ones who cared enough to fight against the rise of fascism (or space fascism, in this case). But, they could at least live to fight another day, and for added optimism the "younger generation" can be a new group of rebels even in the present and older generations failed to provide enough of them.

Isn't Catharsis suppose to be you know... enjoyable

But...The thing is when your Villains are stupid and incompetent then the only reason the Heroes lose is they are Somehow DUMBER and even more incompetent.

I think what they're going for is that the heroes are smart and competent, but the rest of the galaxy is dumb and incompetent and THAT'S why the First Order gets away with so much.

Of course, the Resistance actually is dumb anyway, but that's besides the point. They'd be dumb no matter who they were up against.

but if the rest of the galaxy is dumb and incompetent and the Failure that is the Resistance is relying on THEM to be the New Resistance... Ughh I'm going cross eyed trying to follow the logic

and Granted thats not your fault the movie pretty much has this undertone of utter contempt for the Masses that the Resistance is fighting for that it passive aggressively insults through out the entire movie

These bozoos deserve to be eaten by the Nids