TOS: Patterns of Force

[Darth Wedgius]

I find this an interesting episode. 20 years after WW2, the majority of the people who made it having fought in the war, and here we have an ep where an historian is crowing about how awesome the Nazi's were. And whilst he does turn out to be wrong, imo the ep implies that it wasn't his views that are wrong but rather his execution of those views, as if a smarter man could have worked out the kinks. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall in the writers' room for this one.

Nimoy and Shatner were/are at least ethnically Jewish, too. So when you hear Spock say how far national socialism had gotten Germany, I imagine some interesting thoughts were going through Nimoy's head.

[Admiral X]

I can't help but feel like this episode was built entirely around having access to the uniforms and sets from another production.

I remember when I first saw this episode, that I just couldn't believe the idea that a historian would see any real good in fascism in general and Nazism in particular. Knowing the history of how the party came to power and everything it did just puts me right off the idea. And as Chuck mentioned, they undermined themselves at so many points, the idea of them being efficient is laughable. The only thing they were efficient at was their concentration camp system, which is where the dark humor comes from with the "at least the trains ran on time" comes from.

Anyone interested in the history of how the Nazi Party came to power and all the messed up things they did even before the war started should totally watch the documentary The World at War. And as something of an afterthought, one of the history classes I took was a class called "Women in European History" which I actually found rather enlightening. As it applies to Nazis, I'd actually recommend one of the books I had to read called "Women in Nazi Germany". It's a bit dry because it's essentially a long academic paper, but it could be quite eye-opening to some people.

[Darth Wedgius]

I'm not sure that Gill's plan was obviously bad, in-universe.

Anti-semitism has a long history in the west, and in post-WW1 Germany they also had to deal with the stabbed-in-the-back myth (that WW1 Germany was betrayed by political leaders on the verge of victory, because of Jewish influence). If the Ekosians lacked that history, then that racism kind of came about because of author intent.

Out of universe, of course, "becoming Nazis" is just not going to end well any more than a Federation nutritionist solving a planet's hunger and over-population problems by introducing eating babies.

And of course, though going to a totalitarian system has occasionally produced short-term gains, it doesn't seem to last long, and it can all go really pear-shaped really quickly. I think that part was entirely realistic; Gill had created the reigns and chains and Melakon had to but grab them.

[Mickey_Rat15]

I find this an interesting episode. 20 years after WW2, the majority of the people who made it having fought in the war, and here we have an ep where an historian is crowing about how awesome the Nazi's were. And whilst he does turn out to be wrong, imo the ep implies that it wasn't his views that are wrong but rather his execution of those views, as if a smarter man could have worked out the kinks. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall in the writers' room for this one.

And as an aside, this ep shows why Kirk is made of awesome. The man barely blinks whilst being whipped. You want something to compare to why Pine!Kirk is such a let down? Here it is.

I is not so outlandish, the New Dealers had a mutual admiration society with Mussolini's government while his Italy was still the lead example of a Fascist regime. The intellectuals of the time thought that free market economies were the past and central planning of some sort was a more efficient way to run a society. It is no accident that Franklin Roosevelt was the first president to discard Washington's example of a voluntary two term limit, he thought himself the Indispensable Man. That sort of idea still rattles around.

While it seemed cool when I was a kid, making a metal cutting laser out of what is, at best, a 100 watt incandescent bulb is a bit eye rolling now.

[Mickey_Rat15]

I'm not sure that Gill's plan was obviously bad, in-universe.

Anti-semitism has a long history in the west, and in post-WW1 Germany they also had to deal with the stabbed-in-the-back myth (that WW1 Germany was betrayed by political leaders on the verge of victory, because of Jewish influence). If the Ekosians lacked that history, then that racism kind of came about because of author intent.

Out of universe, of course, "becoming Nazis" is just not going to end well any more than a Federation nutritionist solving a planet's hunger and over-population problems by introducing eating babies.

And of course, though going to a totalitarian system has occasionally produced short-term gains, it doesn't seem to last long, and it can all go really pear-shaped really quickly. I think that part was entirely realistic; Gill had created the reigns and chains and Melakon had to but grab them.

I suppose that goes to the Zeons own intereference in Ekosion development. It appears many Ekosions resented the presumption of being civilised by aliens. Though it makes you wonder how Gill managed to work himself into the Ekosian power structure to the extent that he could take over. What exactly ws his early Ekosian political career like?

[Jonathan101]

I can't help but feel like this episode was built entirely around having access to the uniforms and sets from another production.

I remember when I first saw this episode, that I just couldn't believe the idea that a historian would see any real good in fascism in general and Nazism in particular. Knowing the history of how the party came to power and everything it did just puts me right off the idea. And as Chuck mentioned, they undermined themselves at so many points, the idea of them being efficient is laughable. The only thing they were efficient at was their concentration camp system, which is where the dark humor comes from with the "at least the trains ran on time" comes from.

Anyone interested in the history of how the Nazi Party came to power and all the messed up things they did even before the war started should totally watch the documentary The World at War. And as something of an afterthought, one of the history classes I took was a class called "Women in European History" which I actually found rather enlightening. As it applies to Nazis, I'd actually recommend one of the books I had to read called "Women in Nazi Germany". It's a bit dry because it's essentially a long academic paper, but it could be quite eye-opening to some people.

As Chuck said, it's because history and our knowledge of Nazi Germany has progressed dramatically since this episode was made.

At this point in time, the prevailing notion was that Hitler was a "strong dictator" and Nazi Germany was an evil-but-efficient regime where everything was well-organised and as long as you were pure-blooded German who adhered to Nazi beliefs you would be fine, and the Holocaust and World War 2 were part of Hitlers' intentional master plan from the very beginning.

It was only shortly after this episode came out that academia started seriously challenging that notion as new information came out that painted Hitler as a "weak dictator" whose government was riven with corruption and incompetence, along with Marxist historiography taking root in Western classes and stressing the importance of things like class, economics and social forces and downplaying that of personalities, with the Holocaust and Second World War being seen as something like accidents that came about because the radical forces that were at play got out of control, yet otherwise were just more extreme versions of the policies most nations pursue.

Common consensus is that Hitler was a "lazy dictator" who generally let his minions do as they pleased and pitted them against each other while he only did work that he thought was "important" like consolidating Nazi power, signing off on eugenics and anti-Semitic laws, and preparing to invade Germanys' neighbours. The Holocaust and WW2 were semi-intentional and didn't quite come about as Hitler had intended, though in one way or another he always wanted something like them.

But yeah, this episode made more sense at the time it was made than it would nowadays.

[Yukaphile]

With an opinion you probably all saw coming, I, for one, absolutely abhor the British and French for their crimes against Germany following WWII. Yeah, big surprise, I know, but you cannot label a single nation as responsible for a conflict that, from all accounts, they all wanted to fight - that they had all been preparing for for years. And it got to be bad enough following WWII that they refused to let them postpone some of their war reparation bills and hunger riots broke out. People starving. That's never right, at all, it's just a bunch of assholes being assholes for the sake of being assholes. That's how you got stuff like the Beer Hall Putsch, and the unresolved social conditions that bred a desire to be vindicated on the world stage.

[Durandal_1707]

I can't help but feel like this episode was built entirely around having access to the uniforms and sets from another production.

I remember when I first saw this episode, that I just couldn't believe the idea that a historian would see any real good in fascism in general and Nazism in particular. Knowing the history of how the party came to power and everything it did just puts me right off the idea. And as Chuck mentioned, they undermined themselves at so many points, the idea of them being efficient is laughable. The only thing they were efficient at was their concentration camp system, which is where the dark humor comes from with the "at least the trains ran on time" comes from.

Yeah, it's totally unbelievable that someone in the future would be that ignorant of history. No one could think that Hitler's form government would be good for a country, the entire idea is...

Candace Owens: "If Hitler Just Wanted To Make Germany Great And Have Things Run Well, OK, Fine."

...

(curls up into a ball)

[Yukaphile]

Whoa. I'm all for refusing to demonize Hitler and the Germans as an otherworldly supernatural evil force, but... whoa. Jesus.

[clearspira]

With an opinion you probably all saw coming, I, for one, absolutely abhor the British and French for their crimes against Germany following WWII. Yeah, big surprise, I know, but you cannot label a single nation as responsible for a conflict that, from all accounts, they all wanted to fight - that they had all been preparing for for years. And it got to be bad enough following WWII that they refused to let them postpone some of their war reparation bills and hunger riots broke out. People starving. That's never right, at all, it's just a bunch of assholes being assholes for the sake of being assholes. That's how you got stuff like the Beer Hall Putsch, and the unresolved social conditions that bred a desire to be vindicated on the world stage.

You sure you don't mean WW1 not 2? Because the Allies put a lot into rebuilding West Germany after the war. Britain especially paid its fair share considering our country was in ruins to the point that we were still on rationing until the 1950s and the Empire was rapidly collapsing (that latter point I couldn't really care about but I am sure they did).