"Misgendering," Arrests, and the UK

[SuccubusYuri]

Or you could just rewind to the nineties for the same arguments about "teh gays".

We can also ignore that the UK recently reported that out of 33 women who died in prison in the 2016-2018, six were transgender. Near 20% is a pretty big over-representation, while we're all talking about prisons.

Also no less than the illustrious Shaun has already diddled over why you shouldn't trust any UK press outlet about trans issues. Or do we already need to bring in the Ian Huntley story? No wait I think we already settled those legitimacy problems on the first page...in the first post.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

With regard to TERFs and TIRFs, what does the radical distinction denote?

[Worffan101]

With regard to TERFs and TIRFs, what does the radical distinction denote?

"Radical" TERFs hate transmen for being gender traitors and having internalized misogyny and hating their Beautiful Female Bodies, and hate transwomen for being evil men sneaking into Womyn's spaces. More "moderate" TERFs just hate transwomen for being evil men sneaking into Womyn's spaces and ignore that transmen exist.

TERFs are essentially the feminist equivalent of Nazis.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

With regard to TERFs and TIRFs, what does the radical distinction denote?

"Radical" TERFs hate transmen for being gender traitors and having internalized misogyny and hating their Beautiful Female Bodies, and hate transwomen for being evil men sneaking into Womyn's spaces. More "moderate" TERFs just hate transwomen for being evil men sneaking into Womyn's spaces and ignore that transmen exist.

TERFs are essentially the feminist equivalent of Nazis.

But that's not fair...


Oh yeah and what about TIRFs? Do them. Wait I think I get it.

[Darth Wedgius]

That "understanding" is outdated and based on fearmongering conspiracy theories and bigoted nonsense.

In reality, there are distinct neurological differences between trans people and cis people of the same biological sex, and fundamentally, I think that any one person is better informed about their own fucking gender than some idiot on the street raving about bathrooms.

Why do you think someone is the best expert on their own gender?

Because I trust people to know what they are?

Why? I'm not being flippant. If there is no objective test for gender, then how could somebody be right or wrong? Additionally, we don't normally consider someone's opinion of how they're doing to be the gold standard of any psychological condition (abnormal or otherwise), do we?

[Darth Wedgius]

Why do you think someone is the best expert on their own gender?

Other than the above in Worffan's post, which I agree with, the only alternative explanation for gender dysphoria put forth by someone with an actual medical degree is that it is just a form of homosexuality.

...Which is ANOTHER self-report state, regardless of the validity of their science (it's been the focus of much debunking, fyi). So there is really no "objective" test without subject input from any direction, or are you thinking of something else that medical science has just chosen to ignore...because?

I'm thinking that without an objective determination of gender being possible, anything anyone could have would be, at best, an opinion.

[Worffan101]

Why? I'm not being flippant. If there is no objective test for gender, then how could somebody be right or wrong? Additionally, we don't normally consider someone's opinion of how they're doing to be the gold standard of any psychological condition (abnormal or otherwise), do we?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here? The only person who can truly know what they are is the individual themselves. It is therefore logically best for society to treat people as what they claim to be and take their self-identification at face level. Unless you want to undergo a bunch of experimental brain-scans every time you want to use a public toilet? Or have your hair color checked in microscopic detail whenever you put it down on some form? Have your DNA tested to see what bullshit artificial racial category some racist Senator thinks you fit into every time you apply for a job? Get an eye exam whenever you describe yourself physically? Have someone measure the hardness of your dick every time you have phone sex with your girlfriend?

Seriously, I lived at a college with gender-neutral restrooms for so long that I'm genuinely weirded out now by GENDERED ones. Adapting to a more modern society with less stupid, artificial ideas of how gender works is easy.

Honestly, unless it's something that can actually DIRECTLY (not indirectly/as a result of social pressures, but directly) affect quality of life, I don't see why we can't take people's self-identification at face value.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Gender doesn't really have an objective measure, but it's recognized broadly on a range from personal introspection to societal conventional standard. And the lack of objective measure means there's no discrete bind between identifying and perceiving. Contrapoints did a video on it.

Gender as a social construct isn't really that hard to understand and the premise wasn't particularly new to me, but the practice of transgender raises questions when you consider that binary gender structure has a strong potential for a desire for being perceived as a particular gender on a social level. Any of us can understand that social conventions far from resemble innate physical laws, but do resemble sellers markets on a subliminal level for lots.

[Karha of Honor]

Gender doesn't really have an objective measure, but it's recognized broadly on a range from personal introspection to societal conventional standard. And the lack of objective measure means there's no discrete bind between identifying and perceiving. Contrapoints did a video on it.

Gender as a social construct isn't really that hard to understand and the premise wasn't particularly new to me, but the practice of transgender raises questions when you consider that binary gender structure has a strong potential for a desire for being perceived as a particular gender on a social level. Any of us can understand that social conventions far from resemble innate physical laws, but do resemble sellers markets on a subliminal level for lots.

Peak man are stronger, better coordinated in sports period compared to peak women athletes.

Or you could just rewind to the nineties for the same arguments about "teh gays".

Teh gays and the bisexuals proved themselves to be pretty damn competent and built civilizations despite those qualities.

I am not sure how historically successful the transgender identity is .

Or you could just rewind to the nineties for the same arguments about "teh gays".

We can also ignore that the UK recently reported that out of 33 women who died in prison in the 2016-2018, six were transgender. Near 20% is a pretty big over-representation, while we're all talking about prisons.

Career criminals or even prison guards or not always up on the recent Guardian / Slate article. I am surtprised at that number being that small.

[Darth Wedgius]

Why? I'm not being flippant. If there is no objective test for gender, then how could somebody be right or wrong? Additionally, we don't normally consider someone's opinion of how they're doing to be the gold standard of any psychological condition (abnormal or otherwise), do we?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here? The only person who can truly know what they are is the individual themselves. It is therefore logically best for society to treat people as what they claim to be and take their self-identification at face level. Unless you want to undergo a bunch of experimental brain-scans every time you want to use a public toilet? Or have your hair color checked in microscopic detail whenever you put it down on some form? Have your DNA tested to see what bullshit artificial racial category some racist Senator thinks you fit into every time you apply for a job? Get an eye exam whenever you describe yourself physically? Have someone measure the hardness of your dick every time you have phone sex with your girlfriend?

Seriously, I lived at a college with gender-neutral restrooms for so long that I'm genuinely weirded out now by GENDERED ones. Adapting to a more modern society with less stupid, artificial ideas of how gender works is easy.

Honestly, unless it's something that can actually DIRECTLY (not indirectly/as a result of social pressures, but directly) affect quality of life, I don't see why we can't take people's self-identification at face value.

I don't know what I can say except what I already said. If there's no objective way to evaluate a person's gender, then I don't see any way someone's self-identification can be anything but an opinion.

Maybe an example will help. There are "otherkin" who identify as some other animal, but not in any objectively discernible way. And what's someone else going to say? "Sorry, you're really spiritually not a wolf, but a giraffe"?

If there's no physical expression on any level of someone's gender, then it doesn't seem to me to have an objective meaning.

As far as what harm is done by respecting someone's opinion, I don't know. That gets into psychological areas I'm not qualified in, and I'm not saying "don't play into these people's craziness," I'm literally saying I don't know. Like I said, I have no problem calling someone he, she, Mr., Ms., Mrs. Miss, Sir, or, Ma'am. If I can be kind at no real trouble to myself, why not? If someone with a beard, a beer, a monster truck t-shirt, and a chainsaw wants to be called ma'am, that's fine with me, and not just because I don't want to argue with someone with a chainsaw.

What I disagree with is the force of the law coming down on people with different opinions about something that isn't objectively discernible.