DS9: Business as Usual

[Mickey_Rat15]

Came back to say I disagree with Chuck. A gun is not neutral, it's just as lethal with intent as sarin gas is. It was built with the sole purpose to maim or to murder, and even with the best of reasons and even if it's doing so to truly awful people, it's still as a byproduct of human nature, our endless conflicts and lust for war.

Sarin gas is much less discriminate than a gun and not useful for sport purposes or personal protection. Sarin has little use outside of being a weapon of mass destrction. That is not true for guns as a class of tool.

Lethal intent is entirely determined by the users. The Rwandan genocide, for instance, was carried out by people largely armed with things like machetes.

[MerelyAFan]

Its interesting to me to compare this episode with In the Pale Moonlight. In both episodes the central characters are torn between the values they hold versus their own conscience about the deaths that have or will occur as a result of their action.

A lot of Ferengi society would not see a single issue with Quark's role; indeed "War is good for business" is an outright Rule of Acquisition. Just like Sisko though, he goes violates such standards (and risks his own self preservation to boot) and makes a deal that he can live with. Both characters endorse this decision to each other in their shared scenes too, with Sisko's agreement at Quark's conclusion in Business as Usual, and Quark's approval of the Captain's willingness to act un-Federation like in In the Pale Moonlight (though obviously not completely knowing about Sisko's noble motives for doing so).

The tone is obviously much different given how much the Federation future is highlighted while the society of the Ferengi is lampooned, so going against the former is presented as far more tragic than the doing so with the latter. Still though it is an effective demonstration of the kind of unlikely character similarities DS9 was often willing to do.

[Alinis]

Perhaps, but then the same is true for any other weapon when it's not being used. The same argument can be made for a nuclear bomb, which has no other intent but to murder millions of lives in a single blast. It's just I find Chuck making a distinction between sarin gas and a gun to be a bit of a mistaken assumption. If he wants to say a gun is neutral, then so is sarin gas. After all, it will kill man, woman, and child regardless of political or religious backgrounds, whether they've sinned or not. That's kind of fair, when you think about it. In a natural way, that is. The same way we're all equal in death, rich and poor, young and old, doesn't matter.

A gun is neutral in that there are other uses for it other than killing people, uses for which its been put to use for centuries while there are no other uses for weapons of mass destruciton like nukes and poison gas.

If nothing else somehow I don't think that someone is going to use Sarin gas or a nuclear to hunt for food, defend their livestock from predators, deal with destructive pests like Eurasian wild boar, nutria and other pests or simply shoot inanimate targets.

It would likely be the equivalent to setting a entire town on fire to kill a single spider.

Setting that aside I have to admit this is one of my favorite episodes. I almost always like episodes of DS9 where Quark plays a part and this is one that certainly shows some of the depth that Quark has beyond businessman which I wish we saw more of in the series.

[Sir Will]

Perhaps, but then the same is true for any other weapon when it's not being used. The same argument can be made for a nuclear bomb, which has no other intent but to murder millions of lives in a single blast. It's just I find Chuck making a distinction between sarin gas and a gun to be a bit of a mistaken assumption. If he wants to say a gun is neutral, then so is sarin gas. After all, it will kill man, woman, and child regardless of political or religious backgrounds, whether they've sinned or not. That's kind of fair, when you think about it. In a natural way, that is. The same way we're all equal in death, rich and poor, young and old, doesn't matter.

Perhaps you'd like to make a couple dozen threads on the subject.

And people say he doesn't look at the forums, lol.

Look, I hate guns, many of their uses, and I shudder at the US general attitude towards them (I'm Canadian). But you're also a fool if you think they're always bad, that they never serve any useful purpose, or that they're the same as something like chemical or biological weapons.

[bronnt]

I remember liking this episode up until the point where the Regent (Lawrence Tierney's character) came in. I always felt his dialogue was hamfisted and anvilicious.

This guy rules an interstellar empire, right? So that means he has ships powered by antimatter, presumably. Probably also something analogous to photon torpedoes, anti-matter explosives. If your goal is to cause indiscriminate death and send a message, blasting a city from orbit is going to be highly efficient, and it doesn't require you spending tons of money on some new weapon with limited applications.

Now, there are reasons why he might be interested in a bioweapon. Perhaps there's something in place like planetary shielding that prevents an easy orbital bombardment of this city center. Or perhaps he's looking for something to create more visceral fear in his opponents; likely people will be more terrified of a slow wasting disease than the possibility of being instantly blown up. Perhaps he's concerned about making sure there's an easy way to deploy his weapon that will prevent countermeasures. But not one of these things are discussed in his meeting, and they simply focus on just how many people he can kill.

The dialogue was written to make it sound EEEEVIL for EEEEVIL's sake. Realistically, he should have been asking about applicability and practicalities rather than raw numbers of deaths. Even if he wants a specific casualty rate, he should be talking about percentages anyway (ie, I want something that will guarantee at least 90% casualties in this city, or some significant fraction of the enemy infrastructure, etc.)

[Zoinksberg]

Chuck is watching us, always watching...

Personally I wonder how many people go to the firing range and fire off some nerve gas at the targets. I do rather like that in someone's mind my owning of a single .22 rifle is no different than if I had a bunch of doomsday weapons cluttering up the place.

As far as the episode, I like how the Bajoran government wanted to keep a neutral stance due to their history. This isn't Endor, they weren't going to beat back the occupation with rocks. They are a planet survived by living in the grey area of morality.

As for the Regent, I imagine this was supposed to be a black flag operation. Most likely the intent was to make it look enough like a terrorist attack that outside parties don't feel the need to get involved. Going through back channels, arms dealers that know how to keep their mouths shut, and then carried out by people who will find that their escape was mysteriously blocked. Orbital bombardment might convince others to intervene. The Federation has a habit of questioning those things, unless it violates a treaty or the Prime Directive, that is.

[bronnt]

As for the Regent, I imagine this was supposed to be a black flag operation. Most likely the intent was to make it look enough like a terrorist attack that outside parties don't feel the need to get involved. Going through back channels, arms dealers that know how to keep their mouths shut, and then carried out by people who will find that their escape was mysteriously blocked. Orbital bombardment might convince others to intervene. The Federation has a habit of questioning those things, unless it violates a treaty or the Prime Directive, that is.

But he didn't want it to be secret, he wanted to send a message. That's specifically the point of the wanton and indiscriminate death he was unleashing. It's a very ineffective message if he's hiding who's behind it.

Still, granting that he wants some kind of plausible deniability in the deaths of millions, that's the sort of thing that should have been reflected in his dialogue. It would have made it realistic. "I want my enemy to know who's killing them, but to maintain plausible deniability for outside influences." Instead his dialogue was, "Help me kill...hmmm, let's see...8 million people....and then let's tack, say, 20 million on top of that." It completely took me out of the episode how hamfisted the dialogue was and didn't explain at all why he wanted an arms merchant.

[Fianna]

Why does Quark need to compensate for the damages caused by the two sides shooting at each other? Like with the weapons simulation business, there's technically no law against leading two mortal enemies into the same room and leaving them to their own devices.

[bronnt]

Why does Quark need to compensate for the damages caused by the two sides shooting at each other? Like with the weapons simulation business, there's technically no law against leading two mortal enemies into the same room and leaving them to their own devices.

Civil liability is different from criminal liability. Given that (though I'm not a lawyer, and certainly not a Federation lawyer), I'd say that Quark bears responsibility for "foreseeable consequences." And we know the consequences had to be foreseeable since they did basically what Quark hoped for.

Even in terms of criminal law, he put Gala and Hagath in the room with them, who were not parties to the dispute. As vile as they might be, in this fight, they're basically innocent by-standers. Quark putting them in the room with mortal enemies who might be expected to start shooting each other is reckless endangerment.

[G-Man]

Why does Quark need to compensate for the damages caused by the two sides shooting at each other? Like with the weapons simulation business, there's technically no law against leading two mortal enemies into the same room and leaving them to their own devices.

Because even if Quark is free and clear from a legal standpoint, there are a ton of ways that Sisko can make life unbearable for him if Sisko is really ticked off.