Does it bother you that Disney will be risk averse with Star Wars?

[Fixer]

At a white house panel a statement from a Disney representative said they specifically designed Rey in mind for diversifying their sales to the "strong empowered female" market, so I'm going to stick with their very honest sounding business pitch.

Along with that, the inability to include Luke without him overtaking the story comes off as a very incapable writer. I can think of a better passing of the torch story covered on this site, Batman Beyond.

Terry McGuinness managed to shine in his own story despite the presence of Bruce Wayne. His story was the one we were interested in and the focus of the plot.

Either way for the franchise it doesn't look good from a purely story point of view. Either it's executive meddling or the writing staff isn't capable of making a new protagonist compelling enough to keep your attention from some guy you know.

[Ordo]

At a white house panel a statement from a Disney representative said they specifically designed Rey in mind for diversifying their sales to the "strong empowered female" market, so I'm going to stick with their very honest sounding business pitch.

And I'm going to stick with Lucasfilms and Kathleen Kennedy's comments about not making characters specifically for toy lines. Disney may have gone along with it after the fact, but it's Lucasfilm that choose to go in this direction.

Along with that, the inability to include Luke without him overtaking the story comes off as a very incapable writer. I can think of a better passing of the torch story covered on this site, Batman Beyond.

Again, not the same scenario. Bruce Wayne continues to be present and active in the DC comics, cartoons and movies. Batman Beyond was not his first appearance after a decades long absence from the screen. Also...Batman beyond is a TV series and has 13 to 24 episodes to tell it's story. They've got three movies with Star Wars so there's a constraint that is not present in Batman Beyond. It's also worth pointing out that it's not just Rey...but Finn and Poe as well since they are our new heroes as well and will need time to develop for their own story arcs.

[Fixer]

Again, not the same scenario. Bruce Wayne continues to be present and active in the DC comics, cartoons and movies. Batman Beyond was not his first appearance after a decades long absence from the screen. Also...Batman beyond is a TV series and has 13 to 24 episodes to tell it's story. They've got three movies with Star Wars so there's a constraint that is not present in Batman Beyond. It's also worth pointing out that it's not just Rey...but Finn and Poe as well since they are our new heroes as well and will need time to develop for their own story arcs.

It's not the same scenario but it's close enough. We're given enough information about Bruce to be satisfied, then we keep the focus on the new guys. You could use the same argument to say that Han and Leia shouldn't have been in the new movie as they overshadowed the new cast.

I think Finn and Poe exemplify the real problem though.

Finn's story arc about defecting was unfocused, and then fell in love with Rey. His motivation was conflicted at the stat when the pacifist started killing the people he had been living alongside all his life. Then it became getting to safety, then saving Rey.

Poe was supposed to die in the crash, and was only brought back because the actor asked. There was no plan. He had no arc.

The writing and planning just wasn't there. We have no idea what these guys are going to do, what their life goals are. Why we should be caring about their fight against the First Order.

There needs to be something to make it more compelling.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I don't think Luke is taking over the story, I don't think he'll be more prominent then Han was in TFA. His role is going to be like that of Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT and Qui-Gon in the PT.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is depressing, yes, though I reserve final judgement until we know more about what Luke's motives are, and how it ultimately plays out.

I don't think it diminishes what he accomplished in RotJ. But it is sad to see Luke, to all appearances, a defeated old man. And doubly sad to think that we will never see Luke, Leia, and Han reunited on-screen.

Edit: I mean, seriously? All the fan service they crammed into TFA, and they couldn't give us that?

Definitely agreed on the trio never meeting up again. I do think this adds a serious downer to the end of the original trilogy though. Han and Leia broke up, their kid is a psychopath, Luke failed and lives as a hermit.

Current theory is that they're going with a Knights of Zakuul or a "Visions in the Dark" approach to how the force is handled.
http://www.xamxamsays.com/review-chapte ... -the-dark/

They've been hinting at other approaches to the force in Rebels as well.

What concerns me is that that they're making the Jedi order a bit like the fan screeds on how they were a broken and corrupt organisation rather than the benevolent but flawed one they were. You don't get to be the guardians of a galaxy spanning Republic for a thousand generations without doing something right.

The Jedi Order had become arrogant and dispassionate after they had remained untested by the Sith for centuries but they were due for a reformation under Luke's new order. Instead they're apparently being disbanded for some new and improved grey order. It reminds me of so much badly written fanfiction from the forums of yore.

My view is that the Jedi are a in theory, and in intentions, a mostly good force, but that the late Old Republic Jedi had become seriously compromised.

I'd like to see Luke do better than that though, not just write the Jedi off.

Perhaps what we're seeing from Luke is simply a temporary crisis of faith, brought on by Kylo Ren's fall and the deaths of his students (and perhaps sensing Han's death), and Rey will snap him out of it.

[Ordo]

[quote="Fixer"It's not the same scenario but it's close enough. [/quote]

I don't think it is close enough. People have expectations of Luke that were not an issue for older Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond. Some of these expectations will likely be fulfilled in TLJ, but by then we've established our new heroes and those expectations are fulfilled in service to the arcs of the new heroes.

Finn's story arc about defecting was unfocused, and then fell in love with Rey. His motivation was conflicted at the stat when the pacifist started killing the people he had been living alongside all his life. Then it became getting to safety, then saving Rey.

Finn's story arc is that of a man who has the moral fortitude to leave a path of evil, but no idea what he should do next.

"I was trained to do one thing."

Yet that same man couldn't stand by and let the FO continue to destroy worlds (hence him running back to inform Han about what happened).

Finn is not a pacifist, in fact he's looking for a weapon to defend himself from the FO on Jakku. He is different from the other troopers, the first shot of him in armor on the transport shows him standing slightly out of line, and he actually stops to help a fellow trooper, and later seems frankly appaled at the slaughter of innocents. The thing to notice about the FO is that they do no encourage loyalty to one another, but to the FO itself...so Finn defending himself with lethal force is of no surprise to me.

I care about Finn because he walked away from the FO the first chance he got. He didn't spend years blindly killing for them, he saw what they were doing during his first mission and decided he wasn't going to kill for them.

Poe is a pilot, one trusted by Leia to bring back the map to Skywalker, and I want to know why he chose to join the Resistance over serving the Republic.

[The Romulan Republic]

At a white house panel a statement from a Disney representative said they specifically designed Rey in mind for diversifying their sales to the "strong empowered female" market, so I'm going to stick with their very honest sounding business pitch.

And nothing wrong with that. Why not try to reach out to a large demographic that has heretofore largely been relegated to a more minor role? Especially when one of the main points of criticism for the film is that its already too much a rehashing of the OT?

Though incorporating what Ordo said, I suspect its different people coming together on the same point for different reasons. I could see someone pushing Rey because they like the character, and someone else pushing her for political reasons, and someone else at the top signing off on it because they think it'll be a marketing boost.

Blockbuster films are collaborative endeavours.

Along with that, the inability to include Luke without him overtaking the story comes off as a very incapable writer. I can think of a better passing of the torch story covered on this site, Batman Beyond.

Terry McGuinness managed to shine in his own story despite the presence of Bruce Wayne. His story was the one we were interested in and the focus of the plot.

Either way for the franchise it doesn't look good from a purely story point of view. Either it's executive meddling or the writing staff isn't capable of making a new protagonist compelling enough to keep your attention from some guy you know.

Eh, I quite like Rey, but Luke is Luke. He's always going to draw attention more readily, because he has an established history and emotional connection with the audience (although hopefully Rey will have one too, now).

But yeah, I don't think Abrams is a great writer, from what I've seen. He's a fine director, but he should probably not have had a major role in the script.

[Fixer]

Finn's story arc is that of a man who has the moral fortitude to leave a path of evil, but no idea what he should do next.

"I was trained to do one thing."

Yet that same man couldn't stand by and let the FO continue to destroy worlds (hence him running back to inform Han about what happened).

Finn is not a pacifist, in fact he's looking for a weapon to defend himself from the FO on Jakku. He is different from the other troopers, the first shot of him in armor on the transport shows him standing slightly out of line, and he actually stops to help a fellow trooper, and later seems frankly appaled at the slaughter of innocents. The thing to notice about the FO is that they do no encourage loyalty to one another, but to the FO itself...so Finn defending himself with lethal force is of no surprise to me.

I care about Finn because he walked away from the FO the first chance he got. He didn't spend years blindly killing for them, he saw what they were doing during his first mission and decided he wasn't going to kill for them.

Poe is a pilot, one trusted by Leia to bring back the map to Skywalker, and I want to know why he chose to join the Resistance over serving the Republic.

I think you're being overly charitable with your interpretation of Finn here.

Following his story. He drops to Jakku, suffers a combat stress reaction and suffers after seeing the death of his Stormtrooper friend. Fails to fire a single shot in the combat.

He's discovered in a agitated state by Phasma who's going to have him reconditioned. At this point he rescues Poe, since he needs a pilot to help him escape. His empathy for his fellow troopers and fear of combat suddenly evaporates as he kills few dozen in his escape.

Post Jakku landing he's basically interested in escaping the first order and tags along with Rey after getting beaten up to him, claiming to be a resistance member to avoid further beatings, leading to a series of remarkable co-incidences that has him on Maz's planet. He leaves the group after saying he's just trying to get away from the first order. Han lets him keep his blaster.

The First order fires Starkiller base, Finn sees. The first order attacks Maz's place to get the plans. Suddenly Finn's blaster dissapears. This is because Maz was originally supposed to join the crew heading to the resistance base and hand the saber to Leia. After the plot was changed now Finn needs to carry the saber.

Finn gets beaten up by FN-2199, saved by Han and the resistance cavalry. Chases after Rey who's taken by Kylo.

At the resistance base, Finn lies to Han about being able to bring down the shields in order to rescue Rey. At this point the blaster magically re-appears from whichever plot hole it was lost.

He joins Han, has a hug with Rey who didn't need him to rescue her after all, makes silly faces at Phasma before Chewie throws her into the trash and then gets beaten up by Kylo.

Thus ends the story of Finn thus far.

Basically a guy that's been indoctrinated from birth to follow orders in an evil regime but acts like a regular joe, and who's primary motivation shifts from escaping reconditioning by the first order to saving Rey who he thought was amazing from the first moment he saw her. Suffering a long series of beatings with no real personal victories.

Writing that all out makes me realise it was worse than I had previously thought. I think Boyega's natural charm and general relatable nature masks a lot of it.

[Ordo]

I think you're being overly charitable with your interpretation of Finn here.

I think I'm dead on

Following his story. He drops to Jakku, suffers a combat stress reaction and suffers after seeing the death of his Stormtrooper friend. Fails to fire a single shot in the combat.

Then choose not to join in on the slaughter of innocent people despite orders and expectations

He's discovered in a agitated state by Phasma who's going to have him reconditioned. At this point he rescues Poe, since he needs a pilot to help him escape. His empathy for his fellow troopers and fear of combat suddenly evaporates as he kills few dozen in his escape.

He's being shot at by people who've just proven they will not hesitate to kill anyone, this is self defense and not at all hard to justify.

Post Jakku landing he's basically interested in escaping the first order and tags along with Rey after getting beaten up to him, claiming to be a resistance member to avoid further beatings,

I disagree with this interpretation. He later states that the way Rey looked at him had an impact on him, and is likely the reason why he told that lie. Even so it seems he was about to tell her the truth on the falcon until they were interrupted.

He leaves the group after saying he's just trying to get away from the first order. Han lets him keep his blaster.

His reason being that he doesn't want to kill for First Order.

The First order fires Starkiller base, Finn sees.

And immediatly returns to tell Han and the rest the significance of what has happened.

The first order attacks Maz's place to get the plans. Suddenly Finn's blaster dissapears. This is because Maz was originally supposed to join the crew heading to the resistance base and hand the saber to Leia. After the plot was changed now Finn needs to carry the saber.

Finn always held the lightsaber at this point in the film, even in the concept art. He was drawn to it in the original outline.



Here's the deleted scene:


youtu.be/qB3G2hkn278

Finn gets beaten up by FN-2199, saved by Han and the resistance cavalry.

To be fair to Finn he did better than Luke who only rolled around on the ground as a Tusken raider beat him into unconsciousness before being saved by Obi-wan

Chases after Rey who's taken by Kylo.

At the resistance base, Finn lies to Han about being able to bring down the shields in order to rescue Rey. At this point the blaster magically re-appears from whichever plot hole it was lost.

1. Finn did take down the shields, and the way he did so left them enough explosives to aid the Resistance later.

2. It's a standard resistance blaster, Poe had one in the opening, not hard to arm Finn at that point.

He joins Han, has a hug with Rey who didn't need him to rescue her after all,

Incorrect, Rey had no way off the planet with out the rescue team, as Kylo had already sealed off the base. So she did need his help, which is why she hugs him....he's the first person to come back for her.

makes silly faces at Phasma before Chewie throws her into the trash and then gets beaten up by Kylo.

Let's be fair, he landed a hit on a man named 'Jedi Killer' without aid of the force.

Basically a guy that's been indoctrinated from birth to follow orders in an evil regime but acts like a regular joe, and who's primary motivation shifts from escaping reconditioning by the first order to saving Rey who he thought was amazing from the first moment he saw her. Suffering a long series of beatings with no real personal victories.

1. Not everyone buys into what they are told. I've talked with people who were raised one way but chose another, and they identify with FInn because of this.
2. Personal victories:

- Refusing to kill on the FO's order breaking any conditioning he's done.
- Saving Poe from the FO.
- Saving Rey during the TIE's bombing run
- Gunner on the Falcon, takes out TIE's despite being unfamilar with the system
- Comes up with a plan to poison what he thinks are boarding Storm troopers
- Comes back to help the Resistance despite having the chance to leave
- saves the resistance from Star Killer Base by providing needed information
- Brings down the shields of SKB making an attack possible
- Gives Rey a way off planet and sneaks himself, her, Han and a large Wookie through a base on alert without getting caught.
- Fights Kylo Ren and survives despite being terribly outclassed, so much so that SfDebris commented on the implausibility of a Storm Trooper stalemating and even injuring a trained force user.

Something to add, Finn is not afraid of combat, in the deleted scene I linked he immediatly raises his gun into a firing position. On Jakku he's looking for a blaster with which to defend himself. Finn's actions as a Trooper on Jakku are that of a man suddenly seeing the horror of what is going on around him...realizing these are not training dummies....but people...innocent people being put to the sword (Blaster, flamethrower etc)

[Karha of Honor]

At a white house panel a statement from a Disney representative said they specifically designed Rey in mind for diversifying their sales to the "strong empowered female" market, so I'm going to stick with their very honest sounding business pitch.

And nothing wrong with that. Why not try to reach out to a large demographic that has heretofore largely been relegated to a more minor role? Especially when one of the main points of criticism for the film is that its already too much a rehashing of the OT?

Though incorporating what Ordo said, I suspect its different people coming together on the same point for different reasons. I could see someone pushing Rey because they like the character, and someone else pushing her for political reasons, and someone else at the top signing off on it because they think it'll be a marketing boost.

Blockbuster films are collaborative endeavours.

Usually blockbuster success has jack to do with politics. That's why most message movies never make the big bucks. What was that more minor role in the fandom women were relegated to?