KOTOR 2 Discussion: Were the Jedi right not to leap into the Mandalorian Wars?

[Yukaphile]

We've discussed it before, though mostly as a subset of another debate, so let's just get down to brass tacks. Were the Jedi right not to get involved in the Mandalorian Wars? To me, well, it's rather convenient for them to just sit back and watch entire worlds burn while other Jedi die fighting to free them, and as the Disciple had noted, if they had entered the war, united alongside Revan while trying to investigate the "dark influence" behind the Mandalorians, then most likely the Jedi Civil War would never have happened. I mean, that's what they did in the Clone Wars. In fact, perhaps the Clone Wars were the Jedi trying to make up for the Mandalorian Wars - we didn't get involved then, and it split the order, so we'll get involved here and investigate the dark forces at work against us. That really kind of makes you feel almost sorry for them, eh? Though it doesn't help that most Jedi you meet during and after the Jedi Civil War remain unyieldingly unapologetic to the fact they were letting entire planets and systems die out "evaluating" what was obviously going to be the complete conquest of the Republic. Even the Mandalorians admit Revan drove them back. And I just can't help but imagine tons of Republic Intelligence groups coming before the Jedi Council and projecting their long-term losses assessment similar to the DS9 episode "Statistical Probabilities," and they just keep waving it off insisting, "We'll look into it" with a typical bureaucratic flavor. So yeah, it does paint them as insulated and out of touch. Or just so proud they don't want to admit they were wrong.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think it's one of those Greek Tragedy things or actually equivalent to the Clone Wars.

The Jedi were correct that the Mandalorian Wars were a trap designed to corrupt and destroy as many of them as possible. They also sensed the return of the Sith (whether the Sith Empire or Revan) so they sat it out.

Which...of course, led to the corruption and destruction of many before the return of the Sith.

*sad trombone*

[Yukaphile]

It does kind of paint them in a spot of emotional turmoil. "We sat on our asses last time, and it didn't work! We'll try helping this time! Oh shit, shit, shit, it still didn't work!"

Of course, it might be argued that it's much easier for them to fight what they view as non-sapient beings, droids, than living beings the way the Mandalorians were.

[Independent George]

I don't know much (or, well, anything) about the EU, but based entirely on the games, I'd have to say no. The Republic was getting its collective asses handed to it by the Mandalorians, with countless millions being killed or enslaved. That doesn't speak well of the Republic given their numerical advantage, but that's hardly a reason to use its citizens as ablative armor while searching the galaxy for the Sith. And if the Jedi can't fight off an army of slavers without falling to the Dark Side en masse, then (as Kreia) implied, that seems to indicate a fundamental failing of the Jedi.

To put it another way: would it have been harder, or easier, for the Jedi to deal with the Sith if the Republic had fallen to the Mandalorians?

[Yukaphile]

You mean the Sith Empire, right? Because the "Sith" referred to many times in the games were those who followed Revan and fell to the dark.

[CharlesPhipps]

I don't know much (or, well, anything) about the EU, but based entirely on the games, I'd have to say no. The Republic was getting its collective asses handed to it by the Mandalorians, with countless millions being killed or enslaved. That doesn't speak well of the Republic given their numerical advantage, but that's hardly a reason to use its citizens as ablative armor while searching the galaxy for the Sith. And if the Jedi can't fight off an army of slavers without falling to the Dark Side en masse, then (as Kreia) implied, that seems to indicate a fundamental failing of the Jedi.

To put it another way: would it have been harder, or easier, for the Jedi to deal with the Sith if the Republic had fallen to the Mandalorians?

Kreia's bullshit also ignores the fact that Revan and Malak were neck deep in using Dark Side magic and Rakata technology powered by EvilTM. It also is one of those cases where Avellone's writing kind of ignores that if you're part of the problem, you don't get to complain about the good guys.

[Yukaphile]

Call it bullshit if you will, it was far more interesting in KOTOR 2 than the reretcon we got in TOR.

Was it actually confirmed in TOR that Revan was being manipulated by the Emperor? Because I could still see Revan and Malak deciding, "The ends justify the means, we MUST win at all costs," and delving into the dark side in order to beat the Mandalorians. And yeah, I think the Jedi were absolutely wrong to ignore the Mandalorians, and that Independent George has got it. If the Republic had fallen, there would be no Republican military to help them in the future, and beating the Sith Empire would be that much harder. I also suspect the Mandalorians would have little need for a Jedi Order as a lawkeeping force, so they'd probably exile or banish or outlaw them, and they'd have to retreat to some hidden world to keep training and so on and so forth. But that's part of the flaws Avellone brought up. One line from the Disciple comes to mind.

"It is difficult sometimes for the Jedi to see such things, since much of it is rooted in human nature, and the Jedi are often removed from events of daily life, insulated."

They couldn't see the Mandalorians as a legitimate threat. It's similar to what Kreia had mockingly told the Mandalorians. "And this is why a common soldier will never triumph against a Jedi. Your military 'tactics' are nothing compared to the Force." They act on what they both admit they don't fully understand and yet at the same time, know to be true. That's a great contradiction right there. Or how about with Atris? "A physical victory, perhaps, but the real victory lay in t -" Every word and action spoken and taken indicates, it probably wasn't that they were hesitant about butchering dozens or hundreds of sapient beings as war demands, and that might drive them to the dark side, oh no. It was this "higher calling" Force mysticism that they know and don't fully understand at the same time. How great.

[CharlesPhipps]

Even in the original KOTOR, Revan and Malak found the Star Forge before they went on their quest to defeat the Mandalorians.

Kreia stated that she thought Revan and Malak found the True Sith Empire (which was depicted as far more Lovecraftian and terrifying in KOTOR2) on their quest. She implied they were building up an army to fight it. Fight Sith with more Sith.

TOR stated that Malak and Revan had become sith Lords because they were AGENTS of the Sith Emperor.

Which I appreciate because, "We had to become fascists because the enemies justified harsh measures" is the oldest apologia there is.

[Yukaphile]

So they saw it as something useful that could help them beat the Mandalorians. That just means they were opportunists, it doesn't speak anything to the legions of Jedi under their command who simply wanted to save the Republic. So I take it you think the Jedi Council was right not to engage them? Because going with this logic, if they were the ones to engage the Mandalorians, there would have been no schism at all. It would have been like the Clone Wars, but they were just too arrogant and set in their ways to consider... well, it ties back to that Disciple quote above. Who cares if millions die so long as we preserve our precious purity? It doesn't change the fact the Jedi were sitting back and "evaluating" the threat while millions died. Which is something that is canon to the first game. It's no shocker that the apologists you meet who defend the Jedi here are some of the most hard-line Jedi ever, raised from birth in the Jedi Order, so there you go. Like Bastila Shan. Honestly, I don't see anything in KOTOR 2 with the Jedi Council's reactions that is inconsistent with their decisions to let millions die that the first game established. Except is it harsher? Yeah. But I was quite honestly surprised that Chuck wasn't harsher on this in 2014, given how hard-line he's been over the years on Trek that "letting people die is wrong!"

[CharlesPhipps]

No, the Jedi should have fought them but Malak and Revan weren't well-intentioned extremists. They manipulated and used the forces under their command until they could corrupt them as weapons against the Republic.

They were conquerors by the end and bigger threats than the Mandalorians ever were.