VOY - Virtuoso

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The battles are more large scale than most of what Earth has experienced, but still it comes off to me a bit more as a security force.

On the other hand, it's really reminiscent of a Navy considering all the battles are done at space and not on planets. And a navy is a branch of the military.

[Linkara]

Yeah and I'm the Queen of Sheba. It is an organisation with a military structure, military ranks, military equipment, military personnel, military training and a military purpose. If it is not a military, then it is only so because the meaning of the word has changed.

I'd argue that it is more things than a military so its not quite right as a term.

Its a diplomatic, exploratory, scientific research organization that also serves as the self-defense force of the Federation.

The problem is we don't HAVE an organization quite like Starfleet in the real world. While military scientists and escorts exist, Starfleet is an exploratory and scientific group first and military second (possibly even third given they also serve humanitarian roles in resupplying distant colonies and dealing with medical/planetary crises). The military function of it is more of a defense force and exists mostly for discipline. Military careers are part of it for security and tactical, but as pointed out in the show, tactical and security do not afford one command of a starship. While they're useful skills and look good on a resume for someone on the command track because a Captain needs to have many well-rounded abilities in a crisis situation, since they exist to promote peace and exploration, being on a track STRICTLY one considered aggressive is not good command material in Starfleet and why they feel uncomfortable engaging in things that are MOSTLY about combat, like the war games in Peak Performance.

[CharlesPhipps]

I might argue Starfleet is a Navy before it's a military.

Which is an odd distinction but not an unprecedented one.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I might argue Starfleet is a Navy before it's a military.

Which is an odd distinction but not an unprecedented one.

Yeah I'm not sure I could get much past that. That's why the prior assertion that they employ security measures, just that are on rather bombastic scales.

[Admiral X]

Historically, militaries have participated in the kind of exploration that would be analogous to what we've seen Starfleet do, because generally speaking, they are the ones who have had the equipment and personnel. And given that the military does far more than combat operations even today (any large scale humanitarian aid is going to involve them), I really don't understand the resistance to the idea of Starfleet being a military, beyond being generally anti-military. Even setting aside the ranks, structure, traditions and the like we've seen, we've also seen Starfleet actively participate in combat to defend the Federation and its interests, such as the attempt to forcibly remove colonists in that one TNG episode, and to actively put down other colonists who had rebelled over that whole Cardassian border treaty nonsense. These are not the acts of some civilian research organization that is not a military.

In fact, we've even seen some former Starfleet ships being operated by some kind of grey jumpsuit wearing civilian organization in more than one episode of TNG (they seem to favor old Oberth class ships), so we can see that there are already separate civilian organizations that handle pure exploration and research. Kind of makes sense if you really think about it - Starfleet, the military, spots something, does some initial investigation, and then hands it off to some Federation version of NASA that goes off and checks it out in detail while the Starfleet ships go back to cruising around and finding stuff.

Personally, I see these claims that Starfleet isn't a military as an attempt to have it both ways - so the person making the claim can enjoy what amounts to military drama while being assured that the good guys are indeed the good guys, because for some reason they view the military as nothing but bad guys.

[Fianna]

Though non-military organizations also often employ security personnel and military grade equipment, especially when operating in dangerous or unexplored regions. Like, if a stagecoach in the Old West has its coach drivers (and any other employees on board) carry weapons and be trained to use them in case they encounter violence, we still probably wouldn't call the stagecoach a military organization.

Now, I don't know whether the origin of this information is a reliable source, but what I've repeatedly heard is that Gene Roddenberry modelled Starfleet after the U.S. Coast Guard, which is sort of half-and-half when it comes to being military. It's part of the U.S. Armed Forces, but is not part of the Department of Defense. Instead it's part of the Department of Homeland Security, and its use of force is limited to law enforcement or defense readiness within the United States, and cannot project force outward.

Really, though, I'd say that Starfleet can be more accurately defined as "Department of Space Stuff". If the Federation wants to do something in space, or that requires traveling through space, then Starfleet's what they do it with. You need to take military action in space? Starfleet. You want to do scientific research and exploration in space? Starfleet. You want to transport people and supplies through space? Starfleet. You want to open diplomatic negotiations with another civilization? Again, Starfleet.

[Admiral X]

Though non-military organizations also often employ security personnel and military grade equipment, especially when operating in dangerous or unexplored regions. Like, if a stagecoach in the Old West has its coach drivers (and any other employees on board) carry weapons and be trained to use them in case they encounter violence, we still probably wouldn't call the stagecoach a military organization.

They don't wear uniforms or hand ranks and aren't subject to courts martial either.

Now, I don't know whether the origin of this information is a reliable source, but what I've repeatedly heard is that Gene Roddenberry modelled Starfleet after the U.S. Coast Guard, which is sort of half-and-half when it comes to being military. It's part of the U.S. Armed Forces, but is not part of the Department of Defense. Instead it's part of the Department of Homeland Security, and its use of force is limited to law enforcement or defense readiness within the United States, and cannot project force outward.

When I was in the Air Force, it was always referred to as a military branch.

Really, though, I'd say that Starfleet can be more accurately defined as "Department of Space Stuff". If the Federation wants to do something in space, or that requires traveling through space, then Starfleet's what they do it with. You need to take military action in space? Starfleet. You want to do scientific research and exploration in space? Starfleet. You want to transport people and supplies through space? Starfleet. You want to open diplomatic negotiations with another civilization? Again, Starfleet.

Apart from not making sense for them to be involved in all those military actions if they were not a military organization, what about all the definite civilian organizations we saw operating entirely separately from Starfleet? Does it make sense to have those if Starfleet is taking care of everything? Also, all those things you talk about are also often done by military organizations. I can literally think of no reason not to call Starfleet a military and can come up with dozens of reasons that show why it should be called a military.

[clearspira]

There was a Royal Navy during the time of Earth Starfleet according to Malcolm Reed and the MACO were essentially the Colonial marines. Both seemed to vanish with the Federation charter along with the space fleets of the Vulcans and Andorians. It seems that membership of the Federation carries with it the dismantling of your own military and handing over your security to Starfleet.
I do have a theory for this and it comes back to the idea behind why the EU wants an army: warfare now requires the backing of multiple countries/worlds instead of one, which would greatly aid in the prevention of wars in general as well as stopping follies such as Iraq which most people tend to agree nowadays had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

There was a Royal Navy during the time of Earth Starfleet according to Malcolm Reed and the MACO were essentially the Colonial marines. Both seemed to vanish with the Federation charter along with the space fleets of the Vulcans and Andorians. It seems that membership of the Federation carries with it the dismantling of your own military and handing over your security to Starfleet.
I do have a theory for this and it comes back to the idea behind why the EU wants an army: warfare now requires the backing of multiple countries/worlds instead of one, which would greatly aid in the prevention of wars in general as well as stopping follies such as Iraq which most people tend to agree nowadays had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people.

You mean Gulf War or Iraq War?

[clearspira]

There was a Royal Navy during the time of Earth Starfleet according to Malcolm Reed and the MACO were essentially the Colonial marines. Both seemed to vanish with the Federation charter along with the space fleets of the Vulcans and Andorians. It seems that membership of the Federation carries with it the dismantling of your own military and handing over your security to Starfleet.
I do have a theory for this and it comes back to the idea behind why the EU wants an army: warfare now requires the backing of multiple countries/worlds instead of one, which would greatly aid in the prevention of wars in general as well as stopping follies such as Iraq which most people tend to agree nowadays had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people.

You mean Gulf War or Iraq War?

Iraq War.