General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

[The Romulan Republic]

I never took Dawn's creation as actually rewriting the past, just rewriting peoples' memories of it/records of it. But I suppose its open to interpretation, and in this case, it amounts to much the same thing- we can't trust that anything Buffy says about her past after Dawn's creation is the way that it "originally" happened if not corroborated by pre-Dawn canon.

Agreed on the final point, but I think it happened eventually in part because of Buffy's actions, at least indirectly. It would have been nice for it to be a conscious choice though, maybe.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, so let's just say that Buffy isn't a tactical thinker, and we're getting the perspective of someone who most of the time, only contributes the bare minimum to the fight, unless it becomes personal for her.

All that said, the show is still remarkable. The Body is an utter work of art. Hush is a great exploration of telling a story through images, and Once More, With Feeling is just plain fun.

I also enjoyed the couple of two partners they did with Angel's, making it feel more like a real universe.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, so let's just say that Buffy isn't a tactical thinker, and we're getting the perspective of someone who most of the time, only contributes the bare minimum to the fight, unless it becomes personal for her.

I still think you're being rather unfair to Buffy here.

I mean, it comes off as you criticizing someone who amounts, initially at least, to a child conscript, for wanting to have a life outside of unending war.

All that said, the show is still remarkable. The Body is an utter work of art. Hush is a great exploration of telling a story through images, and Once More, With Feeling is just plain fun.

Agreed, with the caveat that I have some serious plot criticisms of "Once More With Feeling".

And that "The Gift" (and indeed the final four episodes of season five, which I regard as four parts of a single story) should be up their with "The Body". "Restless" too, probably.

I also enjoyed the couple of two partners they did with Angel's, making it feel more like a real universe.

"Five by Five" is one of my very favourite Angel episodes, I think (although number one for shear entertainment value, even if its not the deepest story, is "Smile Time").

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, so let's just say that Buffy isn't a tactical thinker, and we're getting the perspective of someone who most of the time, only contributes the bare minimum to the fight, unless it becomes personal for her.

I still think you're being rather unfair to Buffy here.

I mean, it comes off as you criticizing someone who amounts, initially at least, to a child conscript, for wanting to have a life outside of unending war.

I have no problem with Buffy wanting a life outside of slaying. I have a problem with her general stupidity when it comes to how she approached the problem. A proactive wiping away of all the nests in Sunnydale over the summer(with school let out so she has plenty of free time) and she would have much more free time, or just treasure hunting all of Sunnydale and using any connections Giles has for hocking the goods to ensure that she doesn't have to work at Doublemeat Palace.

The problem is, storywise, they never settled on whether being the slayer was a gift or a curse. If it was a curse, Buffy's decision to force it on every Potential in the finale means that she is selfish about her fight as the Watchers are. If it's a blessing, then she just unleashed a can of whoopass to use on the planet. Whether or not being a slayer was something Buffy wanted, or something that she was forced to do. The answer changed on the episode, and so in one episode, only Buffy could handle the burden of taking out evil, and in others, it was through having friends and family who helped that kept her alive, and the fight was easier.

Personally, I always liked the theme that being the Slayer, while it did give Buffy suffering, it made her grow as a person and made her grow up a lot. This was the theme of the early seasons at least, with her comparison being who Cordelia was in high school, who was Buffy was in LA, and being the Slayer woke her up to what was really going on in the world, and that things like popularity weren't really that important.

[FaxModem1]

Now, if given the opportunity, would you do Buffy different? If so, how?

Now, if I were to write things, this is what I'd try to do different.

For the first three seasons, keep things more or less as normal, storywise. Then Buffy gets a wake up call, she fights a classmate of hers who has become a vampire, someone she told a lie to about BBQ forks and muggers(maybe Scott Hope, Jonathan, Larry, or someone else who isn't yet introduced to the real world that the Scoobies have). Realize that she's part of the problem, and she needs to fix it. Have her from then on revealing to people that Sunnydale does have a darkside, and to be careful about it.

When the Watchers arrive, have her confront Quentin Travers and demand payment and a stipend for services rendered, and demanding actual support from the Watchers Council. Let's flesh them out more than they did in the TV show. Why have they become so complacent about their slayers dying once a year? Have us see the awesomeness of the Watchers Council getting off their keisters and going to war, with Buffy having more direct contact with them. Or, since we're seeing tradition vs rational thinking and liberty, the Watchers tell her flat out no, and she works around them. The Watchers may be in a rut, but Buffy isn't. The more progressive Watchers, under Giles and Wesley's influence, as well as seeing that Buffy is lasting for years and may live to see adulthood, start following her advice. It's time they actually fight evil.

Graduation happens. Buffy knows that fighting alone and winning isn't possible, but fighting with friends and an army, they can stop the forces of evil. When any characters yap on about 'the balance', have Buffy say the same thing she said to the Judge, "That was then, this is now." Season 4 takes place at the Watchers Academy that Wesley talked about. Or to reuse old sets, the Watchers open up an American Watchers Academy, with all the people from Graduation who want to help, but don't know how.

From then on, Buffy has a social life, meeting Watchers in training, as well as traditional Potentials. Find out what happens to a classical potential that isn't called, maybe they grow up to become Watchers themselves, and that's why there is so much of a bloodline thing going on with the Council. Buffy, being a Californian teenager, shakes them up. Some are like Travers, and consider her a foolish girl. Others are wanting to embrace the 20th century. Let's see what happens to Buffy once she leaves Sunnydale, maybe she meets the Initiative, maybe she doesn't. We could have all sorts of story potentials from this. Maybe Quentin Travers becomes a Big Bad for a little while, since he's far too stuck in the past to embrace new ways, while others are perfectly willing to give Slayers an equal voice.

Xander and Willow start getting Watcher training. Since Seth Green would probably be leaving anyway, have Oz and Willow break up, because after high school, you become really different people, and they are going in rapidly different directions. Maybe have Tara be a Watcher in training that falls for Willow. Xander discovers that under a guiding hand, he can really become something, and starts becoming quite the fighter.

(Yes, I just turned Buffy into Hogwarts: the college years, I don't really mind)

Let's have Giles brought back into the fold as a Professor for Watchers, as his success record for keeping a Slayer alive is longer than anyone else in Watcher history, after all. And if you ABSOLUTELY have to bring back Spike, give him a soul really early, kill him, or make him more of a nemesis than their wacky drop-in sitcom neighbor.

Anyway, that's what I'd do. Take the best parts of the later seasons(Buffy becoming more of leader, her standing against tradition, changing up the formula, having the old generation passing on stuff to the new, etc.), while also keeping things that worked in the first three (A school setting, groups of friends, keeping all the main characters on the side of the angels, the characters place in life is moving forward, etc.)


Hell, I just might make a fanfiction out of this.

Later seasons can be Buffy: International. Buffy visits exotic locations, saves the world, and brings along the rest of the Scooby Gang. Buffy grows as a person, and we don't have stupidity like her having to work at a Burger place or getting into an abusive relationship with a vampire.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, so let's just say that Buffy isn't a tactical thinker, and we're getting the perspective of someone who most of the time, only contributes the bare minimum to the fight, unless it becomes personal for her.

I still think you're being rather unfair to Buffy here.

I mean, it comes off as you criticizing someone who amounts, initially at least, to a child conscript, for wanting to have a life outside of unending war.

I have no problem with Buffy wanting a life outside of slaying. I have a problem with her general stupidity when it comes to how she approached the problem. A proactive wiping away of all the nests in Sunnydale over the summer(with school let out so she has plenty of free time) and she would have much more free time, or just treasure hunting all of Sunnydale and using any connections Giles has for hocking the goods to ensure that she doesn't have to work at Doublemeat Palace.

Well, here's the thing:

Buffy isn't stupid, exactly (in fact, its shown on many occasions that she's quite intelligent), but she has no prior experience in anything combat, security, or intelligence-related prior to becoming the Slayer. So she had to learn on the job, beyond what training the Watchers gave her. And as for the Watchers... did I mention the incompetence? I believe I mentioned the incompetence.

Looting, RPG-style, would have been smart. Hell, she even jokes at one point about looting slain enemies and having Giles fence the goods. Might not have been a bad idea.

The problem is, storywise, they never settled on whether being the slayer was a gift or a curse. If it was a curse, Buffy's decision to force it on every Potential in the finale means that she is selfish about her fight as the Watchers are. If it's a blessing, then she just unleashed a can of whoopass to use on the planet. Whether or not being a slayer was something Buffy wanted, or something that she was forced to do. The answer changed on the episode, and so in one episode, only Buffy could handle the burden of taking out evil, and in others, it was through having friends and family who helped that kept her alive, and the fight was easier.

Yes.

Mind you, I tend to be of the view that the season seven retcon that the Slayer was something demonic that was forced on girls by some ancient council of asshole wizards was a misstep.

But if I were to try to reconcile all of this... well, in (very) brief, I would say that the Slayer was a curse, at least in part, because it was forcing a tremendous burden on just one person. That by sharing that burden, Buffy ensured that no one girl would be condemned to be responsible for the entire world until it ended up destroying her.

And in a meta sense, in keeping with the show's feminist message, you could see the creation of the Slayer by the Shadow Men as symbolic rape/enslavement of girls by powerful men, and thus Buffy's actions in "Chosen" as those girls reclaiming control of their own identities, I suppose. I'm not really a feminist theorist or anything. But I think something like that was the intent, even if it could have been handled better.

Personally, I always liked the theme that being the Slayer, while it did give Buffy suffering, it made her grow as a person and made her grow up a lot. This was the theme of the early seasons at least, with her comparison being who Cordelia was in high school, who was Buffy was in LA, and being the Slayer woke her up to what was really going on in the world, and that things like popularity weren't really that important.

I suppose so.

More on your second post later, since you posted it while I was writing this one.

[FaxModem1]

Yes.

Mind you, I tend to be of the view that the season seven retcon that the Slayer was something demonic that was forced on girls by some ancient council of asshole wizards was a misstep.

But if I were to try to reconcile all of this... well, in (very) brief, I would say that the Slayer was a curse, at least in part, because it was forcing a tremendous burden on just one person. That by sharing that burden, Buffy ensured that no one girl would be condemned to be responsible for the entire world until it ended up destroying her.

And in a meta sense, in keeping with the show's feminist message, you could see the creation of the Slayer by the Shadow Men as symbolic rape/enslavement of girls by powerful men, and thus Buffy's actions in "Chosen" as those girls reclaiming control of their own identities, I suppose. I'm not really a feminist theorist or anything. But I think something like that was the intent, even if it could have been handled better.

Personally, I always liked the theme that being the Slayer, while it did give Buffy suffering, it made her grow as a person and made her grow up a lot. This was the theme of the early seasons at least, with her comparison being who Cordelia was in high school, who was Buffy was in LA, and being the Slayer woke her up to what was really going on in the world, and that things like popularity weren't really that important.

I suppose so.

More on your second post later, since you posted it while I was writing this one.

The problem is, like for Willow and magic being both a metaphor for sex between Tara and Willow, as well as drugs and addiction for Willow, is that the power of the Slayer being given to all slayers, whether they wanted it or not, and being used as a rape metaphor. That was, storywise, Buffy forcing these powers on all these girls. If analyzed, it makes Buffy someone who was abused, and turned into an abuser growing up. As you said, quite a misstep.

[The Romulan Republic]

Now, if given the opportunity, would you do Buffy different? If so, how?

Oh, that is a long and complicated question.

In brief, probably:

1. All of Buffy's romances do not happen, or happen very differently.

2. Joyce finds out sooner.

3. Giles doesn't leave like a dip shit.

4. A better explanation for Spike being kept around, as discussed previously.

Now, if I were to write things, this is what I'd try to do different.

For the first three seasons, keep things more or less as normal, storywise. Then Buffy gets a wake up call, she fights a classmate of hers who has become a vampire, someone she told a lie to about BBQ forks and muggers(maybe Scott Hope, Jonathan, Larry, or someone else who isn't yet introduced to the real world that the Scoobies have). Realize that she's part of the problem, and she needs to fix it. Have her from then on revealing to people that Sunnydale does have a darkside, and to be careful about it.

The problem with this is two-fold:

1. Their are legitimate arguments in favour of secrecy, at least at this point, and questions about the extent to which Buffy would be believed, short of somehow proving magic to the world.

2. Buffy has already had classmates turned, even had her own mother bitten (non-fatally) in season one. So what makes this time different?

The first point can be debated, but the second one is a problem of consistent characterization, and is an issue whatever your own views on the merits of secrecy.

Perhaps having a relative of a victim, or a survivor of an attack, confront her on this point, and show her a different view point would work.

When the Watchers arrive, have her confront Quentin Travers and demand payment and a stipend for services rendered, and demanding actual support from the Watchers Council. Let's flesh them out more than they did in the TV show. Why have they become so complacent about their slayers dying once a year?

I don't think the field Watchers are complacent about it. Its the ones behind the nice tidy desks, who have probably never trained a Slayer in their lives, who have that attitude.

Have us see the awesomeness of the Watchers Council getting off their keisters and going to war, with Buffy having more direct contact with them. Or, since we're seeing tradition vs rational thinking and liberty, the Watchers tell her flat out no, and she works around them. The Watchers may be in a rut, but Buffy isn't. The more progressive Watchers, under Giles and Wesley's influence, as well as seeing that Buffy is lasting for years and may live to see adulthood, start following her advice. It's time they actually fight evil.

I can see season five Buffy demanding payment when she confronts the Watchers. In fact, I'm surprised that she didn't.

I have a harder time seeing season three Buffy do it, because she's less sure of her position vs. the Watchers, and when she does oppose them, its more hostile and she probably wouldn't have wanted anything from them, or trusted anything from them.

Work around them? Yeah, she kind of did that anyway, if not very subtly.

Of course, it took the confrontation with Glory, among other things, to make her see her own power over the Council in season five. So perhaps such an epiphany could have happened earlier, under the right circumstances.

Graduation happens. Buffy knows that fighting alone and winning isn't possible, but fighting with friends and an army, they can stop the forces of evil. When any characters yap on about 'the balance', have Buffy say the same thing she said to the Judge, "That was then, this is now." Season 4 takes place at the Watchers Academy that Wesley talked about. Or to reuse old sets, the Watchers open up an American Watchers Academy, with all the people from Graduation who want to help, but don't know how.

From then on, Buffy has a social life, meeting Watchers in training, as well as traditional Potentials. Find out what happens to a classical potential that isn't called, maybe they grow up to become Watchers themselves, and that's why there is so much of a bloodline thing going on with the Council. Buffy, being a Californian teenager, shakes them up. Some are like Travers, and consider her a foolish girl. Others are wanting to embrace the 20th century. Let's see what happens to Buffy once she leaves Sunnydale, maybe she meets the Initiative, maybe she doesn't. We could have all sorts of story potentials from this. Maybe Quentin Travers becomes a Big Bad for a little while, since he's far too stuck in the past to embrace new ways, while others are perfectly willing to give Slayers an equal voice.

Xander and Willow start getting Watcher training. Since Seth Green would probably be leaving anyway, have Oz and Willow break up, because after high school, you become really different people, and they are going in rapidly different directions. Maybe have Tara be a Watcher in training that falls for Willow. Xander discovers that under a guiding hand, he can really become something, and starts becoming quite the fighter.

(Yes, I just turned Buffy into Hogwarts: the college years, I don't really mind)

Well, not really, because Hogwarts isn't a military academy. Its a middle school/high school that happens to have magic.

Beyond that, this all seems... well, too much like wish fulfilment, I guess. Like, it all sounds really cool, but too neat and too easy.

I guess I would say that a big change like this should be hard-earned. Especially when you're fighting against entrenched tradition. Such things do not die easily in the real world.

Let's have Giles brought back into the fold as a Professor for Watchers, as his success record for keeping a Slayer alive is longer than anyone else in Watcher history, after all. And if you ABSOLUTELY have to bring back Spike, give him a soul really early, kill him, or make him more of a nemesis than their wacky drop-in sitcom neighbor.

Again, to paraphrase the Joker, you can't kill Spike because he's just too much fun.

That said, they could definitely have handled it better.

Personally I think that "Becoming Part II" is probably the gold-standard for writing pre-Buffy romance Spike as a Scoobie ally. Give him and Buffy a common enemy that neither can defeat on their own. Show Spike as a monster, but a monster with more complex motives than "evil for the sake of evil."

Hell... if Travers is the big bad for a while, what better common enemy for a rogue Slayer and a vampire than a Watcher? Don't tell me Spike wouldn't like to thin the Watcher's Council's ranks a bit, if given the chance to do it with Slayer backup.

Although I will note that I'm personally not fond of fan fic writers turning Travers into an all-out evil villain. I think that his intentions are probably mostly good- he's just horribly out of step with and detached from reality, and thinks he's a lot more clever and charismatic than he really is.

I don't think Buffy could be the longest-lived Slayer at that point, though, because at one point Buffy says that Slayers don't live past 25. Which suggests that at least one of them lived upwards of five years, since I don't think we've ever seen anyone past their teens getting Called.

Anyway, that's what I'd do. Take the best parts of the later seasons(Buffy becoming more of leader, her standing against tradition, changing up the formula, having the old generation passing on stuff to the new, etc.), while also keeping things that worked in the first three (A school setting, groups of friends, keeping all the main characters on the side of the angels, the characters place in life is moving forward, etc.)


Hell, I just might make a fanfiction out of this.

Later seasons can be Buffy: International. Buffy visits exotic locations, saves the world, and brings along the rest of the Scooby Gang. Buffy grows as a person, and we don't have stupidity like her having to work at a Burger place or getting into an abusive relationship with a vampire.

Well, we can always use more good Buffy fanfic.

[Independent George]

So I finally finished reading this thread, and almost everything I would have wanted to say has already been said by somebody else. Almost. Because amidst all this discussion, we have overlooked a really important question that was brought up in Angel, but never resolved. Namely:

Cavemen, or astronauts?

Discuss.

[TGLS]

Cavemen, or astronauts?

Discuss.

Only one answer; Cosmonaut. Cosmonaut has space gun. Astronaut and Caveman has no space gun. Cosmonaut win.