Trans "women" athletes have advantages over cis women

[CmdrKing]

Well there’s the topic title for starters.
Otherwise, what aspect of the topic isn’t “and this is why it’s okay to exclude trans women”?

But actually bumping this up because of this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxo2stksk9yct ... n.pdf?dl=0

It’s big, so still reading it, but relevant all the same.

[Karha of Honor]

There’s a lot that could be said here. About how the IOC has had guidelines for trans women since 2004 but despite none yet qualifying it’s a big deal NOW suddenly.

Why would this be surprising? I know I keep saying this, but until recently, there haven't been very many transwomen around. There still aren't very many around, although there are a lot more than there used to be. Breaking into the highest levels of athletics is really, really hard. Frankly, we shouldn't expect a population as tiny as transwomen to produce any qualifying Olympic athletes.

What about the many other levels of competition. Why are people who should be heavyweight allowed to compete in the light divisions?

[Darth Wedgius]

Well there’s the topic title for starters.
Otherwise, what aspect of the topic isn’t “and this is why it’s okay to exclude trans women”?

But actually bumping this up because of this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxo2stksk9yct ... n.pdf?dl=0

It’s big, so still reading it, but relevant all the same.

1: Putting quotes around "women" isn't "Let's exclude trans-women from social life." It can indicate doubts that trans-women are women, but any actions taken from that are all in your imagination.
2: Excluding trans-women from women's sports competitions isn't "Let's exclude trans-women from social life."

[Darth Wedgius]

I've seen two general approaches used or suggested.

1: Include trans-women with testosterone below certain levels. It's my impression that this is the most common approach in practice. Drawbacks are that there may be residual effects of having grown up male (more data is needed I think) and that some cis-women have pretty high levels of testosterone, and there has been overlap between suggested limits and rare natural testosterone levels.

2: Let the men and trans-XXXs compete with each other, with cis-women competing among themselves. I've seen this suggested by some female athletes. I think the main drawback is that trans-XXXs will likely have a rough time competing with cis-men at the highest level, but I think more data is needed.

I've very rarely see anyone suggest that anyone calling themselves a woman be allowed to compete in women's sports, regardless of any hormone treatments being done or not, so I think men going trans just to compete would be really rare. I've never seen suggestions of having trans leagues, and don't know if there'd be enough competitors to make it practical.

I think the most fair approach would be just to have everyone compete in one big league, but then in many competitions, maybe most, cis-women might as well stay home.

Fun little note: there is evidence that women would be better than men at running ultramarathons. We might see the discussion reverse itself for that.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

In case anyone is interested, here is an article concerning testosterone levels and competitive qualification standards.

https://apnews.com/543c78d943144874a661 ... OcyvWeBfhU

[clearspira]

Testosterone has been known to be a huge advantage for decades. If you have had the benefit of a boys' puberty, regardless of whether you wanted it or not, then you have an unfair advantage over naturally born women. This is why we are not discussing whether transmen should be able to compete against naturally born men.
I feel for transwomen I really do, but we must also consider the other competitors as well. Hard work should be the only thing that means the difference between winning and losing in sport.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So I actually just read the article, and apparently the athlete was born female. Was not expecting that to be the case.

[clearspira]

So I actually just read the article, and apparently the athlete was born female. Was not expecting that to be the case.

That is of course what muddies this considerably.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So I actually just read the article, and apparently the athlete was born female. Was not expecting that to be the case.

That is of course what muddies this considerably.

In an ironic way, you can make a case that if that's the determinable factor for regulating trans women in the sport, then rules are rules and it'd be unfair to the trans folk that reduced their T levels so low.

I'm initially poised to say it's innately unfair to bar a female, but yes I consider this situation muddied.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

There’s a lot that could be said here. About how the IOC has had guidelines for trans women since 2004 but despite none yet qualifying it’s a big deal NOW suddenly.

Why would this be surprising? I know I keep saying this, but until recently, there haven't been very many transwomen around. There still aren't very many around, although there are a lot more than there used to be. Breaking into the highest levels of athletics is really, really hard. Frankly, we shouldn't expect a population as tiny as transwomen to produce any qualifying Olympic athletes.

"Until recently".

Wrong. Until recently, there haven't been many OUT trans women around. Trans women have been a significant population subset, at the very least, since the priestesses of Innana sang prayers in ancient Mesopotamia.