VOY - Retrospect

[9ansean]

I think this is a good forum to speculate on sensitive issues.

The podcast you linked consists of three women that talk about how problematic the episode is, and it's understood what the intent was and how it looks bad not only especially now, but yeah it was probably even a bad idea back then.

So at the end, when all the women are talking about the look that Janeway gives her, it's true that people picking up on the episode might come across with what you and the gals were talking about, and that's relevant when dishing out on how well concept works for better or worse. That's not at all what Janeway was doing though, and that itself isn't a matter of interpretation.

Which leads to judgement of it as just a story. By this point, you seemed to be making the case that this episode was strongly and probably intentionally establishing a victim-blaming narrative for everybody watching to catch up on. The episode isn't doing that though.

No that is not my argument. Which is why asked to speak freely to avoid any misunderstanding.

Let me clarify a few things. First, as someone on the autism spectrum I certainly understand the fear of being misjudgment for a difficulty reading social cues or lacking a filter. It's also left me knowing all to well what it's mean to be traumatized or abused, only to have it downplayed or denied. So I can easily see both sides of this stories.

Second, I'm not an apostle of the notion "believe women" should be followed unquestionable regardless of evidence. I don't follow any rallying slogan without question. Their good for mobilizing supporters, but not effect at winning over skeptics. So it's not the false memory narration it's self I have a problem with, it's that the episode handles it so badly.

As I mentioned before I'm reluctant to site any study or statistics because they can be twisted around any number of ways, but the overwhelming amount of evidence suggest that false charges or rape deliberate or false memory based are minuscule compared to massively depression number of rape cases that don't lead to charges, don't go to trail, or end acquittal based on technicalities despite overwhelming evidence. There are many reasons victims don't come forward and yet the continuing assumption that false charges or common and have some how hurt as many people as rape or other traumatic forms of abuse continues. Reinforcing the self-fulling prophecy for those who repeatedly ask "why can we trust them if they didn't report it sooner or can't remember it better." Intentional or not, Retrospect reinforces that feeling reporting abuse might not even be worth it. After this episode it's difficult for me believe that were Seven harassed by another crew member or guest that she'd feel all that confident reporting it. That not addressed in a future episode, that's a disservice in my mind to her character and fans of a series that envisions a better future and that's why I reopening this discussion in the first place.

I don't believe this was set up as a victim blaming narrative (as I said before it seems unfocused due to to many people involved and Fuller admit it didn't turn our quite like he planned), but that doesn't matter much to me. Context is important, but what someone meant to say shouldn't decide how to read what was actually said. That's why I compared it to Tattoo. I'm sure Michal Piller thought he was coming from a place of respect for Native American history and spirituality. It still came off to Chuck and many others as patronizingly racist. He admitted in his review that many people really like that episode, but that stop him from branding it Space White Man's Burden. If some get a better experience from Retrospect than me, good them. I felt like I'd seen the perfect model of Space Rape Culture.

You know someone said earlier that even if Seven is used like a prop in this episode it shouldn't matter much because she isn't real. That's like saying the misappropriation of different Native American customs to construct Chackotay's tribe isn't worth getting upset about because there not real. If this episode had ended with more Seven realizing that for all the freedom she'd acquired as an individual, she felt more trapped that ever it would have seemed highly appropriate. If it showed how little people trusted her judgment, how even her memories couldn't be trusted anymore, and the having to adhered to a new "collective" that couldn't agree on what was based for her or the larger mission was enough to make her wonder if being freed from the Borg was real worth it I would have though it fitting. In Faces I got that sense of tragic irony at the ends for Torres. I didn't get it here, but despite Jeri Ryan making Seven's ordeal all too real.

[9ansean]

I think this is a good forum to speculate on sensitive issues.

The podcast you linked consists of three women that talk about how problematic the episode is, and it's understood what the intent was and how it looks bad not only especially now, but yeah it was probably even a bad idea back then.

So at the end, when all the women are talking about the look that Janeway gives her, it's true that people picking up on the episode might come across with what you and the gals were talking about, and that's relevant when dishing out on how well concept works for better or worse. That's not at all what Janeway was doing though, and that itself isn't a matter of interpretation.

Which leads to judgement of it as just a story. By this point, you seemed to be making the case that this episode was strongly and probably intentionally establishing a victim-blaming narrative for everybody watching to catch up on. The episode isn't doing that though.

[9ansean]

I think this is a good forum to speculate on sensitive issues.

The podcast you linked consists of three women that talk about how problematic the episode is, and it's understood what the intent was and how it looks bad not only especially now, but yeah it was probably even a bad idea back then.

So at the end, when all the women are talking about the look that Janeway gives her, it's true that people picking up on the episode might come across with what you and the gals were talking about, and that's relevant when dishing out on how well concept works for better or worse. That's not at all what Janeway was doing though, and that itself isn't a matter of interpretation.

Which leads to judgement of it as just a story. By this point, you seemed to be making the case that this episode was strongly and probably intentionally establishing a victim-blaming narrative for everybody watching to catch up on. The episode isn't doing that though.

[9ansean]

No that is not my argument. Which is why asked to speak freely to avoid any misunderstanding.

Let me clarify a few things. First, as someone on the autism spectrum I certainly understand the fear of being misjudged for difficulty reading social cues or lacking a filter. However, it's also left me knowing all to well what it's mean to be traumatized by internal or outside threats, only to have them downplayed or denied. So I can easily see both sides of these stories.

Second, I'm not an apostle of the notion "believe women" should be followed unquestionably regardless of evidence. I don't follow any slogan without question. Their good for mobilizing supporters, but not effective at winning over skeptics. So it's not the false memory narration it's self I have a problem with, it's that the episode handles it so badly.

As I mentioned before I'm reluctant to site any study or statistics because they can be twisted around any number of ways, but the overwhelming amount of evidence suggest that false charges (either deliberate or false memory based) are minuscule compared to massively depression number of rape cases that don't lead to charges, don't go to trail, or end in acquittal based on technicalities despite overwhelming evidence. There are many reasons victims don't come forward and yet the continuing assumption that false charges are common and have some how hurt as many people as rape and other traumatic abuse continues. Reinforcing the self-fulling prophecy for those who repeatedly ask "why should we trust them if they didn't report it sooner" and "we can't they remember it better." Intentional or not, Retrospect reinforces this feeling reporting sexual abuse might not even be worth the effort. It legitimizes this falsehood that being accused of rape is somehow as harmful or worse as actually being raped.

After this episode it's difficult for me believe that were Seven harassed by another crew member or guest that she'd feel all that confident reporting it. That's not addressed in a future episode, which is a disservice in my mind to her character, to Ryan's talent and to fans of a series that envisions a better future and that's why I reopening this discussion in the first place.

I don't believe this was set up as a victim blaming narrative (as I said before it seems unfocused due to to many people involved and Fuller admits it didn't turn our quite like he planned), but that doesn't matter much to me. Context is important, but what someone meant shouldn't be the deciding factor in what you hear. That's why I compared it to Tattoo. I'm sure Michal Piller thought he was coming from a place of respect for Native American history and spirituality, but it still came off to Chuck many others as patronizingly racist. He admitted in his review that many people really like that episode, but that stop him from branding it Space White Man's Burden. If some folks got a better experience from Retrospect than me, good you all of them. I felt like this was the perfect model of Space Rape Culture.

You know someone said earlier that even if Seven is used like a prop in this episode it shouldn't matter much because she isn't real. That's like saying the misappropriation of different Native American customs to construct Chackotay's tribe isn't worth getting upset about because they're not real. If this episode had ended with more Seven realizing that for all the freedom she'd acquired as an individual, she felt more trapped that ever it would have seemed highly appropriate. If it showed how little people trusted her judgment, how even her memories couldn't be trusted anymore, and the having to adhered to a new "collective" which couldn't agree on what was based for her or the mission was enough to make her wonder if being freed from the Borg was real worth it. That would have been fitting. In Faces I got that sense of tragic irony at the ends for Torres. I didn't get it here, despite Jeri Ryan making Seven's ordeal all too real.

[clearspira]

Why did you repeat yourself three times?

[Madner Kami]

OCD? He did so in a different thread before already and either himself or a mod cleaned it up.

[Admiral X]

I think he tried to edit but hit the quote button instead.

[9ansean]

Damn! I don't now how this happens. I managed to delete the duplicates once before, but now they won't let me because of some replay requirement.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So it's not the false memory narration it's self I have a problem with, it's that the episode handles it so badly.

Yes, that's what I was trying to establish as understood by me. Again, I get all the issues it has as an allegory. And it's a viable topic for discussion as the podcast dictated or as we're talking here. And again though, as a story set in space it is not, in my opinion, violating any conventions of sci-fi, star trek, or general happenstance of how people or society works.