DS9 - The Collaborator

[cdrood]

I'm reminded of the end of "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" starring James Stewart & John Wayne. After Stewart's character (Rance Stoddard) reveals the truth of the events that rose him to political prominence, the reporter tears up his notes with the line, "This is the west. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." Stoddard became famous due to an act that was atypical of his beliefs. He actually briefly believed he'd committed it and was guilt ridden. Later, he's guilty about being credited for the act, despite all the good he'd done. The point was that he, rather that Wayne's character, was more suited to lead as civilization and law & order spread west. The implication in the film was that the truth would have led to less scrupulous men being in charge.

[bguy]

There's also the Firefly episode Jaynestown for the idea that people need their legends for hope and inspiration even when the legends aren't strictly true.

[Trinary]

There's also the Firefly episode Jaynestown for the idea that people need their legends for hope and inspiration even when the legends aren't strictly true.

True, but at least in Jaynestown, Jayne told the truth and the people chose to continue to believe the legend. There wasn't a case of someone deciding for them not to reveal the truth. What's more, their oppression was still ongoing. If, say, in a hundred years when that economic system was abolished and those people were freed, someone came along and found out the truth about Jayne and decided to hide it in order to preserve the legend, I'd be arguing against that too.

[Artabax]

Father Kolbe was a Polish priest in a Nazi concentration Camp. SS chose a random Peasant to be tortured to death. Kolbe said No, torture me to death instead. The miracle is that Random Peasant survived. If I were a Nazi I would have tortured both of them.

Likewise Opaka said Don't murder the Peasants, murder my child and his Regiment. The miracle is that the Civilians survived. If I were Cardassi, I would have murdered the Resistance and as soon as there was nobody protecting the Civilians, I would have …

Opaka sacrificing her Isaac to save many people would have preserved her Glory.

[CharlesPhipps]

The thing that always bothered me about that Bajoran schmuck (his name was Li Nalas) was that people were talking about campaigns he commanded...but he was just some grunt on the ground. He wasn't a commander or leader at all.

This is just an observation but there have actually been RL cases of things happening. Battles get conflated, guerilla strikes get attributed to the same guy even though he had nothing to do with it, and people misreporting things that end up in common knowledge. In France, post-WW2, there was a fairly long period where a lot of the victories against the Nazis reported were exaggerated or local folklore. No one wants to hear the local village did nothing at all.

In Li Nalas' case, he was a grunt who killed the equivalent of Reynard Heydrich and became a symbol regardless of the facts (that are difficult to verify as the Cardassians aren't exactly sharing what was really going on).

I am inclined to believe he was probably a resistance cell leader but everything we know about the Bajoran resistance shows that there was never actual army battles but only guerilla campaigns and sabotage. Which is to say he probably was as much a leader as they had in the setting but was elevated to mythical status.

[AllanO]

I'm reminded of the end of "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" starring James Stewart & John Wayne.

Whenever I read this the theme tune of the movie pops into my head...

[bronnt]

here have actually been RL cases of things happening. Battles get conflated, guerilla strikes get attributed to the same guy even though he had nothing to do with it, and people misreporting things that end up in common knowledge. In France, post-WW2, there was a fairly long period where a lot of the victories against the Nazis reported were exaggerated or local folklore. No one wants to hear the local village did nothing at all.

In Li Nalas' case, he was a grunt who killed the equivalent of Reynard Heydrich and became a symbol regardless of the facts (that are difficult to verify as the Cardassians aren't exactly sharing what was really going on).

I am inclined to believe he was probably a resistance cell leader but everything we know about the Bajoran resistance shows that there was never actual army battles but only guerilla campaigns and sabotage. Which is to say he probably was as much a leader as they had in the setting but was elevated to mythical status.

It's pretty clear that Li Nalas wasn't even a leader. Supposed victories were being attributed to Li Nalas' leadership at places when he wasn't even present.

I can believe word like that spreading, of course. Stories will spread and people will just assume it was their legendary hero who caused it. But at some point the actual leaders of those fights should actually step forward and claim credit: "Wait, I was in charge of that battle. I spent weeks planning that ambush and Li Nalas wasn't even there-give me a bit of credit, please." And you would think that unless Bajorans are closed-minded simpletons (which is possible but I hate that representation of the 'good guys') they should embrace the idea that there's actually more Bajoran heroes for them to celebrate.

It's just the conflation of roles that messes with me. I'd find it more plausible if the stories were limited to him pulling impossible heroic feats, inspiring people with his fearlessness and standing unafraid under fire, that sort of thing. You could understand people thinking he was present even if they didn't see him, since they couldn't see the whole battle.

But when he's getting credit for doing things that other people actually did, that's where it gets problematic. You'd think someone would correct the record. "No wait, that wasn't Li Nalas, it was Gin Nathers. He was in command of that fight, and I was by his side the whole battle." Their loyalty to their comrades would correct issues of stolen glory.

[Yukaphile]

I'm not so sure. In a brutal hell-war where rape, murder, dismemberment, and torture are a daily part of life, plus mass murders in retaliation for the crimes of a few, or to maintain order, you're going to want to believe in something larger than yourself. I just wish they'd followed up on Li Nalas later. I do believe the big problem is that, well... he came, he died, he was a big shot, and never alluded to again.

[Deledrius]

I just wish they'd followed up on Li Nalas later. I do believe the big problem is that, well... he came, he died, he was a big shot, and never alluded to again.

The biggest dropped plot on DS9 really was Bajor. After the refusal to join The Federation and signing the non-aggression pact with the Dominion, they stopped mattering.

[Yukaphile]

They had regrown their identity and mostly their sense of worth by then. The Federation was the one having to fight an intergalactic war.