Immigration Thoughts

[Nealithi]

So I saw the thread that dissolved to . . bad stuff. But it is something I would like a discussion on. Because I am of very mixed feelings on the whole thing.

First you have things like a child was being kidnapped and a man intercedes and blocks the kidnapper. The hero is an illegal. Pluses for good actions but he is here illegally. I would say put him on the list for entry with notes both for illegal entry and the heroism.
Then you have children that were raised here. But not born here. So they spent all of their formative lives in the USA. And had no say in being brought here. Deport or are they effectively citizens since they were raised that way?
Then the ugly. Senator at a town hall style meeting has shoes thrown at him by admitted illegals who scream they have rights. Civil Rights. . . Now correct me if I am wrong but are not your civil rights based on the country you hail from? And attacking a senator while admitting to being here illegally. Isn't that called an invasion?

I just don't have a one size fits all answer. What do you all think?

[Yukaphile]

I think it's all of them.

[pilight]

People have been going back and forth across the Mexico-US border since long before it even was a border. Politicians have used anti-immigrant rhetoric to gain support from racists and other ignorant people since the days of the Know Nothings. It's a very old debate.

The US government has wrangled over border policy since Texas was admitted to the Union and will likely continue to do so long after we're all dead. It goes back and forth between "Send us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" and "I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall".

[Mecha82]

Isn't immigration big part of USA and whole belief that America is land of opportunities with so many people living there either being immigrants themselves or having been descended from family of immigrants? In that sense whole debate doesn't really make sense since lot of people wouldn't be able to live in USA if they or they family from some generation before them would had been denied that opportunity. Let me remind people that most people living in USA and that are American citizens have they roots some were else.

[Nealithi]

Isn't immigration big part of USA and whole belief that America is land of opportunities with so many people living there either being immigrants themselves or having been descended from family of immigrants? In that sense whole debate doesn't really make sense since lot of people wouldn't be able to live in USA if they or they family from some generation before them would had been denied that opportunity. Let me remind people that most people living in USA and that are American citizens have they roots some were else.

The only rebuttal I have, if that is even the correct term here. Is that not true of many places that they don't seem to ask that question? Like the pacific islands, Greenland, Iceland, and even England?

[Mecha82]

Isn't immigration big part of USA and whole belief that America is land of opportunities with so many people living there either being immigrants themselves or having been descended from family of immigrants? In that sense whole debate doesn't really make sense since lot of people wouldn't be able to live in USA if they or they family from some generation before them would had been denied that opportunity. Let me remind people that most people living in USA and that are American citizens have they roots some were else.

The only rebuttal I have, if that is even the correct term here. Is that not true of many places that they don't seem to ask that question? Like the pacific islands, Greenland, Iceland, and even England?

Of course. After all humanity originates from Africa and has had to move to other places already during pre-history and with places like Iceland we have case of people going and staying there for they own reasons. That said I don't know much about England from time before Normans arrived and conquered it from saxons than little bit that is related to celts and even then I don't know when they arrived there.

It's just that no other place on this planet is talked to be land of opportunities and being nation created by colonists that took lands from native people and rebelled against those from cross the sea that ruled over them. Native people that also arrived from else were but are considered that because they were first ones living there. In fact they were pretty much reason why Vikings that were actually first Europeans to discover America didn't stay.

[FlynnTaggart]

I kinda see both sides of the debate. While I'm personally fine with immigration I do have a problem with illegal immigration while acknowledging that sometimes, maybe alot of times, the US immigration system can be hard to get through, legal immigrants have a tough time becoming citizens. I understand the drive for people to immigrate illegally and sympathize wholeheartedly with them, I know they are usually coming here seeking a better life from from extreme poverty that makes even WV look like a paradise, conflict, and horrific discrimination. The US is built on immigration, everyone even the Natives are descended from immigrants.

But unfortunately there are some harsh realities. The US is not the same as it was when vast boatloads of people came over here during the last century looking for a better life. The US has some pretty extreme problems, we are in debt something fierce and have trouble helping our own people with homelessness rampant especially in some areas and a full of gaping holes social safety net some say is near to breaking. Job opportunities are finite. Even leaving aside fears of global terrorism (which I'm not diminishing but not overly related for the question of South and Central American immigrants despite what Donny Dbag might think, its still relevant because of the problems of a porous border allowing such people in though) there can be problems with large numbers of people coming here putting a strain on our economy and immigration systems. The heartbreaking pictures of people caged and kids in kennels (which were from the Obama admin, not that Trump's policies are any better) are the result of our immigration system being overwhelmed. Not to mention the problems associated with breaking our laws to be here, a not very good first step to becoming a citizen even if a very understandable reason for doing so.

We cannot just take in everyone these days, while building Duh Wall is stupid the sentiment behind its need is valid. Immigration needs controlled definitely though.

Me personally I believe there should be stronger border controls (especially the US northern border, darn Canadians coming over here to take our supplies of Maple syrup, I'm onto you Canada) but there should be an easier path for citizenship for people, the DREAMer kids that are eligible should be made citizens but at the same time there should be harsher punishments for people who are deported and return time and again. Despite the term being considered a dirty word by people on both sides I think there can be a compromise between mercy and humane treatment of immigrants with protecting our borders and enforcing our laws.

[Nealithi]

Oh I only went back as far as England because I had heard of history for it being colonized and controlled by celts, romans, etc. I do not know of history for people moving to the German lands or Russia for example. Only the we all came out of Africa originally. Which I don't think folks want us to all move back there. . .
My thought is that Iceland, for example, should be able to trace their ancestors to when they immigrated or at least know where they descended from. And I admit it is a relatively weak counter point. But I do not hear of protests on illegal immigrants in England or Iceland for example. . . Though that might just be provincialism of American news media. . . .

[Nealithi]

I kinda see both sides of the debate. While I'm personally fine with immigration I do have a problem with illegal immigration while acknowledging that sometimes, maybe alot of times, the US immigration system can be hard to get through, legal immigrants have a tough time becoming citizens. I understand the drive for people to immigrate illegally and sympathize wholeheartedly with them, I know they are usually coming here seeking a better life from from extreme poverty that makes even WV look like a paradise, conflict, and horrific discrimination. The US is built on immigration, everyone even the Natives are descended from immigrants.

But unfortunately there are some harsh realities. The US is not the same as it was when vast boatloads of people came over here during the last century looking for a better life. The US has some pretty extreme problems, we are in debt something fierce and have trouble helping our own people with homelessness rampant especially in some areas and a full of gaping holes social safety net some say is near to breaking. Job opportunities are finite. Even leaving aside fears of global terrorism (which I'm not diminishing but not overly related for the question of South and Central American immigrants despite what Donny Dbag might think, its still relevant because of the problems of a porous border allowing such people in though) there can be problems with large numbers of people coming here putting a strain on our economy and immigration systems. The heartbreaking pictures of people caged and kids in kennels (which were from the Obama admin, not that Trump's policies are any better) are the result of our immigration system being overwhelmed. Not to mention the problems associated with breaking our laws to be here, a not very good first step to becoming a citizen even if a very understandable reason for doing so.

We cannot just take in everyone these days, while building Duh Wall is stupid the sentiment behind its need is valid. Immigration needs controlled definitely though.

Me personally I believe there should be stronger border controls (especially the US northern border, darn Canadians coming over here to take our supplies of Maple syrup, I'm onto you Canada) but there should be an easier path for citizenship for people, the DREAMer kids that are eligible should be made citizens but at the same time there should be harsher punishments for people who are deported and return time and again. Despite the term being considered a dirty word by people on both sides I think there can be a compromise between mercy and humane treatment of immigrants with protecting our borders and enforcing our laws.

I hope you don't mind. You raised a few points I would like to comment on. First I am concerned with the political system of undo what the other guys did last time. That is basically stagnation. And I also think the wall is not a totally bad idea. I think it should be on the border. Not inland by X feet or miles. That is ceding territory. And I think a physical barrier will make it easier to patrol by delaying the basic crossing attempts. Will it stop someone tunneling for a few miles and popping up inside the borders? No. But then neither will drone patrols, or even people driving around the border. You can't stop 100%. But you can make it harder. And with the illegal crossings slowed perhaps then a focus on applicants could be handled more efficiently. Instead of simply swamping the whole system.

[FlynnTaggart]

I hope you don't mind. You raised a few points I would like to comment on. First I am concerned with the political system of undo what the other guys did last time. That is basically stagnation. And I also think the wall is not a totally bad idea. I think it should be on the border. Not inland by X feet or miles. That is ceding territory. And I think a physical barrier will make it easier to patrol by delaying the basic crossing attempts. Will it stop someone tunneling for a few miles and popping up inside the borders? No. But then neither will drone patrols, or even people driving around the border. You can't stop 100%. But you can make it harder. And with the illegal crossings slowed perhaps then a focus on applicants could be handled more efficiently. Instead of simply swamping the whole system.

Got no problem with someone poking at my thoughts just as long as they don't poke my brain physically, a person will only grow as a person with their views challenged and examined. Just no brain poking, I draw the line at that.

The magic reset button of US politics is definitely a problem at times, certainly you only need to look at something like Romney.... I mean Obamacare to see how (rightfully or wrongly, personally I was never totally sold on it completely, it had some good ideas but also some bad idea and didn't do enough to address the problems of US healthcare but I know there was a limit that could be achieved with intractable political opposition back by lots of money from big pharma) a new butt in the pilot seat can completely undue what came before. Any legislation to try to fix immigration by either side of the aisle with be hampered if not completely undone when the opposing side with the differing views gets into power, leaving things indeed stagnating.

I'm not really against the wall itself, its just a wall, a tool, and can when used right be helpful. I however am against what it represents, a quick fix packaged for campaign slogans and bumper stickers and not a true solution. Its like the calls for "ban the guns" (gun control is another quite hairy topic) after a shooting, right or wrong it does not fix the problem, its an aspirin for the headache from a stabwound, its only treating a symptom of the problem while leaving the reasons for the shootings to fester and get worse but is ignored because people think they fixed the problem. The Wall for some is the fix for immigration, not addressing extreme poverty, crime, our effed immigration system, our dumbass War on Drugs that makes crime so lucrative like Prohibition 2.0, and other factors that drive migration legal and illegal to the US.

If Duh Wall goes up it needs to be part of a comprehensive overhaul of immigration alongside trying to combat and fix some of the causes, the problem of illegal immigration can be slowed down if not virtually stopped that way. A quarter assed fix to immigration can I think be sometimes worse then no fix, can make it worse.

I acknowledge I'm looking at the situation as an armchair general with no real understanding of the politics or logistics involved, that my simplistic solution of attacking the root cause is probably fantasy akin to Atlantis and Half Life 3 but I just think how people go about it with band aid solutions is kinda crazy.