Areas where you'd respectfully disagree with Chuck

[Mecha82]

So even when DB franchise tries to have villain with little more depth it's still lot less than most other anime and manga have. Including some other shounen anime and manga like Naruto.

I was demenstraiting what you were saying, that Dragon Ball has villains that are more then just evil for it's own sake but still pure evil. and by the way, Frieza wasn't evil just for it's own sake either, his ongoing goal is to gain power and to dominate all he sees.

I didn't say that there were none just that even ones that are there are shallow compared to many other evil anime and manga villains even in same genre. Neither Frieza and Cell had any depth. Both were pretty much evil for sake of being evil type villains because of how shallow they motivations really are. Then again maybe I don't see this supposed brilliance of DB villains since I am not fan of that franchise unlike you who clearly loves everything about it and wants to praise it all the time when ever you get chance. Then again DBZ fandom is known to be one of more fanatical anime fandoms on internet today.

[Yukaphile]

Duuuuuuuude... One Punch Man fans could give them a run for their money. Remember SSJGodGoku? Imagine him a whole fandom of him, and by design of the show's concept... encouraged by horrible web shows like Death Battle which used a no-limits fallacy to determine the winner in Goku vs. Superman, and thus made that a popular perception and lazy debating tactic.

But yeah, I'm a huge DBZ fan. Cell is my favorite villain. They have no depth, but they're fun. Same way ID4 has no depth, but is fun.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

So even when DB franchise tries to have villain with little more depth it's still lot less than most other anime and manga have. Including some other shounen anime and manga like Naruto.

I was demenstraiting what you were saying, that Dragon Ball has villains that are more then just evil for it's own sake but still pure evil. and by the way, Frieza wasn't evil just for it's own sake either, his ongoing goal is to gain power and to dominate all he sees.

I didn't say that there were none just that even ones that are there are shallow compared to many other evil anime and manga villains even in same genre. Neither Frieza and Cell had any depth. Both were pretty much evil for sake of being evil type villains because of how shallow they motivations really are. Then again maybe I don't see this supposed brilliance of DB villains since I am not fan of that franchise unlike you who clearly loves everything about it and wants to praise it all the time when ever you get chance. Then again DBZ fandom is known to be one of more fanatical anime fandoms on internet today.

the brilliance about Frieza, as explained on that video I linked too, is that the hero, Goku, is what is called a flat arc character. and so is Frieza but they effect the world around them in opposite ways, they are the perfect foils for each other. which again, shows that one dimensional villains can work too.

[Yukaphile]

The depth really isn't in the villains, it's in the serialized plot, in how Frieza made his own worst enemy, how Goku embraces his heritage because of him, when he screams, "I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN, SON GOKU!" Thank you, Sean. Hell, in that sense, Cell is a weaker villain because there's no buildup that Gohan is the one destined to fight him, the one shielded from Cell, and how is brought into this reluctantly, and who has no personal stakes past his friends. I say that as a Teen Gohan fan who really loved the Cell Games, and who thinks Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was the peak of cool for Dragon Ball.

[Yukaphile]

Here's an area I disagree in, with his review of "Midnight on the Firing Line," he went off on a completely confusing and contradictory tangent on "Anger." The part I most disagreed with is stuff like how if something pushes you to behave in a manner you normally wouldn't have, something of you is lost. And then he added "you're still in control." All in all, I really dislike this attitude, because while he's not the one responsible for this, so many people take this attitude to try and justify or excuse people making vile, insidious, disgusting, evil choices and like to undervalue their own decisions, that they made a conscious choice in doing so. I think those claiming this are naive idiots who don't want to believe in a truly evil human being, and so try and comfort themselves in thinking "well, this man who murdered a woman, raped three children, ate the family dog, and then splattered the room with blood in worship of Satan" was mentally ill or had other "extenuating circumstances." Maybe that's just who he is, and deep down, he's acting on it? The truth is coming out? Free will exists, but most people don't appreciate it enough, most people don't handle their anger well enough, and tolerating the wicked by trying to claim they were changed as "from they once were" is a very tricky business, because that definition, what makes it up, is not something that can be measured by outsiders. Not yet. Thus, you can never say what one person was thinking during a crime, and psychology is not a perfect science yet. I mean, maybe they were cute kids, sure... or maybe they were always like that? Sociopaths who pulled wings off butterflies for fun? So in the end, I think I wanna say... that's my piece. But then, I'm an absolutist when it comes to things like free will.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and my point earlier that what is the point of having morals if you always, without exception compromise them, and that question is directed at Chuck. also, there are certainly times when any of the characters in these shows have to compromise their principals but a lot of the stuff Chuck tries to say are gray areas really are back and white.

in "Caretaker", the Ocampa were a whole civilization and the crew of Voyager are just over a hundred people, the former matters more, end of discussion.

in "Equinox", the Spirits of Good Fortune were sapient beings, thus, killing them under any circumstance outside of self defense is inexcusable and Janeway, at least in the first half of the story, was in the right, end of discussion.

in "Death Wish", it would be immoral to take a short cut home in exchange for condemning someone to a hellhole prison for eternity. the crew that die from then on, their suffering ends at that point but Quinn's will continue forever if they took Q's deal, end of discussion≥

in "Fortunate Son", whatever the problems with the bigger picture, Ryan in particular captured and tortured one of his attackers, loosing any moral high ground he had and doubled down on that by not only almost killing Archer and T'Pol but going on to kill every pirate he sees not for preemptive self defense but for revenge and Archer was right to stop him, end of discussion.

my wording may seem a bit harsh but I don't think this is simply a matter of opinion. I may not be the best to judge if any of those examples are such but there are some things that are objectively right or wrong.

[TrueMetis]

and my point earlier that what is the point of having morals if you always, without exception compromise them, and that question is directed at Chuck. also, there are certainly times when any of the characters in these shows have to compromise their principals but a lot of the stuff Chuck tries to say are gray areas really are back and white.

in "Caretaker", the Ocampa were a whole civilization and the crew of Voyager are just over a hundred people, the former matters more, end of discussion.

in "Equinox", the Spirits of Good Fortune were sapient beings, thus, killing them under any circumstance outside of self defense is inexcusable and Janeway, at least in the first half of the story, was in the right, end of discussion.

So in "Caretaker" the good of the many outweigh the good of the few, even if that choice means that some of the few die.

In "Equinox" the good of the few matter more than the good of the many because some of the few die.

I mean ultimately kind of agree with you, but then we get to another problem.

in "Death Wish", it would be immoral to take a short cut home in exchange for condemning someone to a hellhole prison for eternity. the crew that die from then on, their suffering ends at that point but Quinn's will continue forever if they took Q's deal, end of discussion≥

The crew of the voyager are facing up to a century of suffering away from home. The Ocampa are hamster people who are fucked within the next few decades at the most regardless. In fact if we're gonna take length of suffering into this, than your morality from death wish says you should do whatever will kill the Ocampa faster.

in "Fortunate Son", whatever the problems with the bigger picture, Ryan in particular captured and tortured one of his attackers, loosing any moral high ground he had and doubled down on that by not only almost killing Archer and T'Pol but going on to kill every pirate he sees not for preemptive self defense but for revenge and Archer was right to stop him, end of discussion.

In this case not really much of a difference between preemptive self defence and revenge at the end of the day. Torture is bad yes, but complaining about him trying to kill pirates is basically "you can't do the right thing for bad reasons".

[Dragon Ball Fan]

"Equinox" wasn't a matter of "needs of the Many" it was that the Spirits were sapient, and thus, it would e no different if they were slaughtering the usual "actor with plastic on their forehead" type of aliens, which on one would be arguing in favor of Ransom and his crew then. also, me conceding that Janeway lost the moral high ground in the second half doesn't magically make the Equinox crew right.

[TrueMetis]

"Equinox" wasn't a matter of "needs of the Many" it was that the Spirits were sapient, and thus, it would e no different if they were slaughtering the usual "actor with plastic on their forehead" type of aliens, which on one would be arguing in favor of Ransom and his crew then. also, me conceding that Janeway lost the moral high ground in the second half doesn't magically make the Equinox crew right.

"Kill a couple people to save the lives of a bunch more" is pretty much the definition of the needs of the many but sure.

Anyway, I can see plenty of people arguing in favour of Ransom and his crew if instead of glowy alien it was just some guy. People have felt perfectly justified in killing other people for a lot less than the possibility of saving the live of some of their people.

I mean fuck, if I was lost somewhere with totally inadequate supplies and transportation with my people dying, and someone handed me a gun and said all I need to do to get them home safe was kill some random guy? I've no idea what I would do in that situation. Which seems to me to be the definition of gray area.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

"Equinox" wasn't a matter of "needs of the Many" it was that the Spirits were sapient, and thus, it would e no different if they were slaughtering the usual "actor with plastic on their forehead" type of aliens, which on one would be arguing in favor of Ransom and his crew then. also, me conceding that Janeway lost the moral high ground in the second half doesn't magically make the Equinox crew right.

"Kill a couple people to save the lives of a bunch more" is pretty much the definition of the needs of the many but sure.

Anyway, I can see plenty of people arguing in favour of Ransom and his crew if instead of glowy alien it was just some guy. People have felt perfectly justified in killing other people for a lot less than the possibility of saving the live of some of their people.

I mean fuck, if I was lost somewhere with totally inadequate supplies and transportation with my people dying, and someone handed me a gun and said all I need to do to get them home safe was kill some random guy? I've no idea what I would do in that situation. Which seems to me to be the definition of gray area.

they killed far more spirits then there were crew members of Equinox, they were not the many in this situation. and as I said before, they only said they had other problems, for all we know, Equinox was only in the shape she was in BECAUSE they started killing the Spirits and made them retaliate. or at least, things weren't as bad as they were letting on before that point. I mean, the first Spirit was accidentally killed during research. if their situation was that hopeless, they wouldn't have time for scientific study.