SW The Old Republic: Sith Warrior

[iwfan53]

And then of course the corruption aspect plays right into the other bits of the narrative, like Corellia's government elites deciding to switch sides to the Empire in defiance of their population's overwhelming majority for the Republic (hence Corellia's role as the final world for all the original class stories).

Having just played through the game's main storyline as a Bounty Hunter isn't the entire point of their particular quest line on Corellia (at least as it interacts with Imperial efforts them) basically them (the bounty hunter) working with one particular guy who wants to betray the planet/side with the Empire so that they can solidify his (the politicians) own political power, and then you round up all the other major political powerhouses who are still alive so the Sith can put a gun/lightsaber to their heads and tell them they can either declare their planet part of the empire, or they can die slowly and painfully?

So in that one particular case it was more about one person's corruption and some black ops than systemic corruption throughout the entire governing body.

[Steve]

The Republic side of the planetary mission shows there was more than just that one guy, since you end up capturing them (although one has been helping you, as he's decided they were wrong to change sides).

The Bounty Hunter class story is, IIRC, more about removing potential sources of resistance to the Imperial takeover on Darth Tormen's behalf.

[CharlesPhipps]

To be fair, any criticism you levy at the Sith Empire pretty much can be levied at the Soviet Union and plenty of other governments having active infighting among its leadership during wartime. We also know the Sith Empire isn't winning the fight the second time around and ultimately loses to the Zakuul.

And eventually just....fades away.

Mind you, this is all stated by Valkorian where he says that he abandoned the Sith because they were Stupid EvilTM.

As my Sith Warrior would say, echoing Magneto in First Class, "I agree with everything you've said, but you killed my planet."

[Independent George]

To be fair, any criticism you levy at the Sith Empire pretty much can be levied at the Soviet Union and plenty of other governments having active infighting among its leadership during wartime. We also know the Sith Empire isn't winning the fight the second time around and ultimately loses to the Zakuul.

There's a difference, though, between rivalry/infighting (which is a constant across all nations and cultures), and the Sith way (which includes assassinations, active sabotage of rival operations, and deliberate manipulation of intelligence). The closest analogue I can think of is late Roman Empire, where nobles actively warred with each other while being invaded (often collaborating with the invaders), which kind of makes my point for me.

The attrition rate of the Sith Academy is the worst part, though. The best analogue I can think of there is the stringent training of IJN pilots during WW2; it was an advantage so long as they suffered no casualties, but could not replace their losses by war's end. Kamikaze attacks were partially due to the shortage of trained pilots - it's a lot faster to train somebody to fly straight into a target than to teach proper tactics.

[TheStarWarsTrek]

Man, I could write a book on the problems with the Sith philosophy. The main thing is their "Social Darwinist" or "survival of the fittest" philosophy has a simplistic view of "strength" "weakness". Just like how in real evolution, it's less "survival of the fittest" and more "survival of the most adaptable".

A Sith sees the Rule of Two and says "Once the Apprentice has learned everything he can from the Master, he should kill the Master to prove he's the strongest and best! If the Apprentice fails and the Master kills him, he was weak and deserved to die." It never occurs to the Sith that maybe the Master was a great lightsaber duelist, but not so great at detecting poisons. So maybe the Apprentice gets impatient, poisons the Master, and now he's the Master even though he never got past Lightsaber Duels 101. Another thing that never occurs to the Sith is that both the Master AND Apprentice could come down with Candorian Plague, or that a drunk Jawa could crash a colony ship into them and kill them both.

Sith Simplemindedness says that the strong always live, and the weak always die. This philosophy leads to their damaging infighting, and this philosophy means that when they recruit minions there's no "well, you suck as a soldier, but you might be suited to another position" or "maybe some more training would help". It's "anyone who fails dies". There was (non canon) a comic in Star Wars Tales that showed the OT Empire recruiting Stormtroopers by throwing the recruits a blaster and having them kill each other. Then during training (not actual combat, training), an officer tells the protagonist to, instead of helping another trooper up the wall "Leave him! Let him die and climb!" And hear I thought every military in the world tried to instill a sense of camaraderie into their soldiers. Even if the Empire dosn't care about the sanctity of life, you don't have to be a Machiavellian genius like Palpatine to see that's a waste of potential. If that guy was helped up the wall, he could have gone on to serve the Empire. But Sith thinking says "he screwed up one time, so he was weak and deserved it".

I've said it before, but I'm honestly surprised a Sith hasn't banned medpacks on the grounds that "anyone who succumbs to injuries is weak and should be culled". A Sith would have everyone who shows up for training play Russian Roulette, and praise the survivors as having proven their strength. No wait, better example: A Sith would have his soldiers compete against a tank in a foot race or in carrying heavy loads. Then when the tank wins, the Sith decides that since it's stronger and faster, all his footsoldiers should be put to death and his army will consist only of tanks. Makes it kind of hard to do scouting or door to door searches, but hey, the tank was strongest! When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails, especially when everytime you find a screwdriver or wrench you kill it for not being a hammer.

[CharlesPhipps]

One thing that is good about TOR is actually the big thing I like about the Expansion Packs. It's also sadly something I doubt Chuck will ever get into due to how much he hates them. Basically, the Sith Empire only succeeded because of their rulership by an absolute dictator in the Sith Emperor for literal centuries. It IS a bankrupt ideology in-universe.

So much so the villain abandoned his own followers as Too Dumb To Live.

It's also a major theme in the Imperial Agent, Sith Warrior, and Sith Apprentice storylines.

[Jonathan101]

A Sith sees the Rule of Two and says "Once the Apprentice has learned everything he can from the Master, he should kill the Master to prove he's the strongest and best! If the Apprentice fails and the Master kills him, he was weak and deserved to die." It never occurs to the Sith that maybe the Master was a great lightsaber duelist, but not so great at detecting poisons. So maybe the Apprentice gets impatient, poisons the Master, and now he's the Master even though he never got past Lightsaber Duels 101. Another thing that never occurs to the Sith is that both the Master AND Apprentice could come down with Candorian Plague, or that a drunk Jawa could crash a colony ship into them and kill them both.

Darth Bane actually intended that Master and Apprentice should be expert duellists and the test of strength should be a duel to the death, no poisons or other sneaky methods. So it DID occur to him.

It's just that later Sith didn't agree with that, and previous Sith didn't quite adhere to it.

[TheStarWarsTrek]

A Sith sees the Rule of Two and says "Once the Apprentice has learned everything he can from the Master, he should kill the Master to prove he's the strongest and best! If the Apprentice fails and the Master kills him, he was weak and deserved to die." It never occurs to the Sith that maybe the Master was a great lightsaber duelist, but not so great at detecting poisons. So maybe the Apprentice gets impatient, poisons the Master, and now he's the Master even though he never got past Lightsaber Duels 101. Another thing that never occurs to the Sith is that both the Master AND Apprentice could come down with Candorian Plague, or that a drunk Jawa could crash a colony ship into them and kill them both.

Darth Bane actually intended that Master and Apprentice should be expert duellists and the test of strength should be a duel to the death, no poisons or other sneaky methods. So it DID occur to him.

It's just that later Sith didn't agree with that, and previous Sith didn't quite adhere to it.

But there's still the fundamental issue that (to use an RPG analogy) no one can have a perfect 10/10 on all of their Skills. IIRC, in those books Bane's apprentice Zannah could use the Force to create illusions in a way that Bane couldn't, while Bane had brute strength. So basing who lives and who dies, and wether the Apprentice is ready to be the Master, on a contest of strength is pointless.

Imagine how schools would work if students could challenge the teacher to a duel to the death, and if the student one now THEY get to teach Chemistry 101. Sure, the idea is that the Apprentice won't challenge the Master until they believe they've learned everything they can, but what teenager (or even some adults) doesn't believe they know everything about how the world works?

[Jonathan101]

A Sith sees the Rule of Two and says "Once the Apprentice has learned everything he can from the Master, he should kill the Master to prove he's the strongest and best! If the Apprentice fails and the Master kills him, he was weak and deserved to die." It never occurs to the Sith that maybe the Master was a great lightsaber duelist, but not so great at detecting poisons. So maybe the Apprentice gets impatient, poisons the Master, and now he's the Master even though he never got past Lightsaber Duels 101. Another thing that never occurs to the Sith is that both the Master AND Apprentice could come down with Candorian Plague, or that a drunk Jawa could crash a colony ship into them and kill them both.

Darth Bane actually intended that Master and Apprentice should be expert duellists and the test of strength should be a duel to the death, no poisons or other sneaky methods. So it DID occur to him.

It's just that later Sith didn't agree with that, and previous Sith didn't quite adhere to it.

But there's still the fundamental issue that (to use an RPG analogy) no one can have a perfect 10/10 on all of their Skills. IIRC, in those books Bane's apprentice Zannah could use the Force to create illusions in a way that Bane couldn't, while Bane had brute strength. So basing who lives and who dies, and wether the Apprentice is ready to be the Master, on a contest of strength is pointless.

Imagine how schools would work if students could challenge the teacher to a duel to the death, and if the student one now THEY get to teach Chemistry 101. Sure, the idea is that the Apprentice won't challenge the Master until they believe they've learned everything they can, but what teenager (or even some adults) doesn't believe they know everything about how the world works?

Well, yeah- that's why his successors didn't bother with it.

Also if you challenge the Master before you are ready, then you will learn the hard way why you don't challenge until you are ready. I think most RoT Sith Apprentices were shown to fully appreciate that their Masters were extremely powerful and dangerous, to the point where many of the Masters actually feared that their Apprentices just didn't have the balls to even try and kill them, and it ended up being the Dark Side itself that prompted Plagueis to kill his master and Palpatine to do the same to Plagueis, whispering to them at the right moment "It's your time".

[hammerofglass]

A Sith sees the Rule of Two and says "Once the Apprentice has learned everything he can from the Master, he should kill the Master to prove he's the strongest and best! If the Apprentice fails and the Master kills him, he was weak and deserved to die." It never occurs to the Sith that maybe the Master was a great lightsaber duelist, but not so great at detecting poisons. So maybe the Apprentice gets impatient, poisons the Master, and now he's the Master even though he never got past Lightsaber Duels 101. Another thing that never occurs to the Sith is that both the Master AND Apprentice could come down with Candorian Plague, or that a drunk Jawa could crash a colony ship into them and kill them both.

Darth Bane actually intended that Master and Apprentice should be expert duellists and the test of strength should be a duel to the death, no poisons or other sneaky methods. So it DID occur to him.

It's just that later Sith didn't agree with that, and previous Sith didn't quite adhere to it.

But there's still the fundamental issue that (to use an RPG analogy) no one can have a perfect 10/10 on all of their Skills. IIRC, in those books Bane's apprentice Zannah could use the Force to create illusions in a way that Bane couldn't, while Bane had brute strength. So basing who lives and who dies, and wether the Apprentice is ready to be the Master, on a contest of strength is pointless.

Imagine how schools would work if students could challenge the teacher to a duel to the death, and if the student one now THEY get to teach Chemistry 101. Sure, the idea is that the Apprentice won't challenge the Master until they believe they've learned everything they can, but what teenager (or even some adults) doesn't believe they know everything about how the world works?

Well, yeah- that's why his successors didn't bother with it.

Also if you challenge the Master before you are ready, then you will learn the hard way why you don't challenge until you are ready. I think most RoT Sith Apprentices were shown to fully appreciate that their Masters were extremely powerful and dangerous, to the point where many of the Masters actually feared that their Apprentices just didn't have the balls to even try and kill them, and it ended up being the Dark Side itself that prompted Plagueis to kill his master and Palpatine to do the same to Plagueis, whispering to them at the right moment "It's your time".

The thing about the Rule of Two is that NOBODY actually followed it. Even Bane had two apprentices, as did Plagueis' master. Maul's entire career was as apprentice to an apprentice.