Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

[aceina]

ohi thought it did LOL

still sorry about the open spoilers ive been using people

[Edvarius]

Okay, I watched the review, but the last four or five pages of this thread read like gibberish about some other show.

Yeah... sorry 'bout that. So, getting back to the subject of the episodes actually reviewed thus far, I gotta feel sorry for Nanoha at the end of episode 3. For most heroes taking down a city-wide menace with one shot in their first week on the job would be a cause for celebration. But instead she gets to deal with the guilt of a headlong encounter with the Peter Parker Principle over not having acted sooner and feeling that ludicrous amounts of property damage and however many injuries occurred due to this are all her fault. And that's not something any 9-year-old should have to deal with.

[Nevix]

This series looks fun, and pretty enjoyable too.

Nanoha... is probably going to be face off against some really nasty threats, considering her power level that's been established.

[aceina]

This series looks fun, and pretty enjoyable too.

Nanoha... is probably going to be face off against some really nasty threats, considering her power level that's been established.

oh hell yes nanoha has alot of fire power she is basically a gundam

no seriously they originally planned something more cutesy then some one pointed out her out fit madeher look a bit like a gundam

and they changed every thing

[TGLS]

I honestly can't see what's making people so excited about this series, but maybe the next review will show it. I'm kinda doubting the 1/4 rule at this point.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I honestly can't see what's making people so excited about this series, but maybe the next review will show it. I'm kinda doubting the 1/4 rule at this point.

Episode 4 is where the story truly starts, all of this has been just a prologue.

[jstrahan]

A quote from an Anime News Network review: "...malignant lolicon overtones are a major heebie-jeebie factor."

[Aotrs Commander]

I honestly can't see what's making people so excited about this series, but maybe the next review will show it. I'm kinda doubting the 1/4 rule at this point.

Nanoha Madoka'd before Madoka did, just not quite as hard.

[SuccubusYuri]

I honestly can't see what's making people so excited about this series, but maybe the next review will show it. I'm kinda doubting the 1/4 rule at this point.

Personally I think the third review will be the one to keep an eye on. I've always maintained that Nanoha follows the Eight Episode Rule.

[Fourth Dimension]

Okay, I watched the review, but the last four or five pages of this thread read like gibberish about some other show.

Sorry about that Nanoha fandom tends to be small, but quite argumentative and pretty split on certain issues which tends to cause this. I'll limit myself to allusions so there are no actual spoilers to future seasons other than Nanoha survives
In that context the fact you don't get anything is a good thing.

Also you don't get anything because, well, while this does start as a bog standard Magical Girl show to be honest... it won't stay that way... world is bigger than what Magical Girl shows usually show
And I'll leave it at that.

Also this is probably my last response to Formless One since by now I'm pretty sure we both have equally entrenched diametrically opposed opinions probably to each of us VERY valid. So using this thread for something that would become a sho- VIGOROUS DISCUSSION about things not relevant to the original season would not be nice

Personally I think the third review will be the one to keep an eye on. I've always maintained that Nanoha follows the Eight Episode Rule.

Yeah, we'll change the formula in the next bit, but we'll still be pretty much in the MG formula. It won't be untill I think ep 6 and maybe later for emotional stuff for the real thing to kick in.

Which is pretty much why people tend to recommend Movie 1st for your first encounter with the series since it abreviates this first segment that's rather standard MG fare and isn't truly the point of the series.

As I've discussed* on Spacebattles** (where there are functional spoiler tags, so I won't repeat all of it here), the last two movies are basically all about taking the general idea and salvaging it by re-contextualizing the narrative with different (but similar) characters. The antagonists in particular are strikingly similar once you strip away the surface details and real life origins, and accept that these characters aren't meant to be the same as they were in the games. The games were too goofy to be taken seriously by the movie audience, so the writer took inspiration from their characterizations in the Brave Duel comics. I mean, at this point I suspect more of the fandom got into Nanoha through the movies than the tv series considering that came out in 2004. Moreover, without spoiling the first season (a necessary thing given where we are posting), the use of time travel in the games was a narrative no-go in the films and TV universes. The most recent movie has dialogue confirming that time travel is supposed to be impossible, and out of universe I believe its because it ruins the narrative theme of season 1's villain.

(I don't know why hyperlinks aren't working so here are the urls)
* https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/59612938/
** https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/59622937/

TBH, I'm not going to to go check out threads on some other random forum.
To keep things spoiler free, I guess it might be a matter of perspective. To ME, the Gears of Destiny didn't feel too goofy, if we accept it could work with some kinda goofy concepts introduced by the first game which was goofy. But even that had quite a few moments I liked. And as for GoD I pretty much liked all of it. And even time travel TBH doesn't really feel like impossible for some random artifact to perform. No matter how much I liked it's approach to Sci Fi via magic, it's still magic so pretty much anything that doesn't go against previously stated things is on the table. And it doesn't do anything with that character's issues since time travel thing is one off artifact that is done after this one.

But more importantly, the entire plot is more in line of what I like about Nanoha, trying to stop some incident that isn't some GRAND BIG BAD EVIL MUSTACHE TWIRLING plan. Instead it tends to be the result of circumstances and pretty much everyone working for in theory positive goals. This is not the case in the movies. Just one antagonist kiiiinda is working for a good goal, but she has also pretty much been character ASSASSINATED by the adaptation. We went from a plotter and schemer trying to do good through questionable means, to some idiot kid who got <<spoiler>>. You say they are mimicking their Brave Duel personas? AS IF. She's nothing like her Brave Duel counterpart since that one is actually based on the game.
And of course other characters haven't had some other intractions before this so they don't have the same stakes in this.

Also since it was a game it allowed us to actually give spotlight to pretty much all of our wide cast of characters, without just focusing on the few and letting others by the wayside. Instead in the movies, it's pretty much all about a select few with the new stupid upgrade and the rest are there to make up the numbers against the mooks.

Compared to its contemporaries, Nanoha has always been "edgy". If you've watched season 1 recently (and I have), it gets dark. It gets uncomfortably dark. Again, I don't want to spoil it for those who are here for Chuck's reviews, but nothing Vivid Strike! shows is any more dark and upsetting than season 1. It just got away with showing more graphic violence because the television censors in Japan are a bit more forgiving now than in 2004, and the context is also slightly different so its actually less uncomfortable than what season 1 will show. Likewise, content in films are never as tightly regulated as broadcast television in any country, and Japan is no different, so the Nanoha films are allowed to show blood if they want to. The shows have avoided it as much as possible. And I don't think a willingness to show violence and the natural consequences of violence is inherently edgy. "Edge" seems to imply a certain nihilism about it that just doesn't apply to Nanoha.

Except the violence in season 1 had a point to it. It wasn't just there to do the gore. Also at the point violence happens in S1 it's because it's a BAD SITUATION. Meanwhile the likes of Strike imply that 12 year olds shattering each other's chests as just DANDY. And not to mention the fact that the entire training bit goes 100% against what the best combat instructor told us in previous seasons. But for Strike previous seasons don't matter so fuck them apparently.

I also don't understand this complaint about Vivid Strike! getting rid of the damage simulator from Vivid while simultaneously complaining about Vivid. A major part of why Vivid sucks is that it lacks tension, and a big part of why it lacks tension is because of the damage simulator system. Vivid Strike! got rid of it because it made the fights feel more real, and importantly more relatable to fans of boxing and MMA. Fans they wanted to attract to Vivid Strike!. Whenever Vivid says that Vivio has a glass jaw, the damage simulator seems to render that moot. It makes the whole experience feel too much like a video game. Making it possible for Rinne to break people's bones in the ring helps demonstrate that her behavior is too aggressive, because she's using unnecessary levels of force given the age category she's fighting in. But she's doing nothing to actually break the rules-- it just makes her the story's Heel, just like in WWE.

The thing is I think we have a misunderstanding of what's more important. Strike offends me... well on couple accounts. It first offended me because I instantly disliked the antagonist and the way she was introduced, and her overblown sob story.
The second is that it fucks with the universe I liked before the likes of Vivid and Force and recently Strike came to be. I can't fathom how in Nanoha universe they'd allow children to do what they did in Strike when there is a way to make the match actually safe.
Also I myself don't get your problem with the safety system. In the first place the entire conceit of it is that safety system being there would not actually change the outcome or damage inflicted or how it felt for the damaged person. The only difference between having and not having the system is that there won't be any damage that lasts after the match. Which kinda TBH was always a thing when we used magic, since pure magic attacks could be set to nonlethal.
As such, why does having the system rob tension? Is for you the only way to generate tension by wondering if someone will DIE or get mangled? Because when has that really been a thing in this franchise? Most of the time, when the plot was good, the problem was never "we can't punch it hard enough", but more "how do we fix this situation".
So if Vivid was just one big tournament arc (which it isn't, not that it helps any) shouldn't the stake be, can the protagonist beat this new opponent? What the hell does it matter if he can't DIE or get mangled during it?!? He looses and he's out of the tournament. End of story.
The only difference is that with the system we don't have bloody teen BLOOD SPORTS as major entertainment in a civilized society.

And besides, the later chapters of Vivid actually explain the change, but that explanation didn't make it to western fans because they didn't export the manga (fans have since translated it, of course). Mixed Magical Battle and Magical Martial Arts are different, but related sports. And because they are different sports, they have different rules, much like Boxing, Wrestling, and Mixed Martial Arts have very different rulesets. Nove even warns the kids ahead of time that the Magical Martial Arts ruleset dial down the safety systems because its rules are more restrictive in other areas-- they can't cast offensive spells, so they are more worried about the kids getting concussions than getting electrocuted with lightning spells. And its not like there are no safety wards in Strike!-- they make explicit use of them in sparring and at one point have to dial up the strength of the field when Fuuka loses a tooth, remember? Dialing them down just makes the story work better, and if that means ignoring Vivid I'm all for it, just like other things from Vivid.

The only place where the system was in place was during the final fight at the fight camp village because the system was allways installed there. There is zero evidence of it ever being present during the actual Winter Cup, and if it "wasn't dialed up properly" I'd call BS to that since they should have known Rinne was a problem.
Also, they totally are using spells still. As probably the most prominent example Miura tries using her final thing that is basically a mana collection thing similar to Starlight Breaker only melee (not that that attack made much sense in Vivid but I digress). The only limit seems to have been to using fistfighting techniques of the melee range due to the size of the ring.
And again I bloody don't care about "it's the different rules fam" response since I can't picture that literally bloody cup in the same universe as others where there is actual safety to the combatants, other than "we PROOOBABLY will be able to heal you back to strength unless someone removes your head, or mushes your brain, probably".

Oh and yeah, using the argument "it never got brough to west" in Nanoha is like complaining you got wet when going to sea. If you are going to be doing Nanoha, you pretty much will have to go funsub and fan translation route since official releases are between terrible or nonexistant. Thankfully in recent couple years pretty much all fansubs have been redone from the wonky past variants. And especially the horrifying original newer movie subs.
And this is hardly a problem for Japan, since to them appropriately the multimedia approach is just fine.

Ah, I keep forgetting this:
Strike TBH MIGHT have been good on it's own, I don't like the antagonist but that's me, but in Nanoha universe it doesn't really work. It honestly feels like someone took the same idea for a standalone show, and then some suit went "Why make a standalone when we can weld this to that Nanoha thing. I heard there was a martial arts thing there. Yeah do it like that so we can reuse the fanbase.".

Literally the only thing that comes from Force are the weapons they break out in order to fight the villains more effectively, which frankly are one of the coolest elements from Force. I've never found StrikerS argument for using pure magic compelling, and the Reflection comic has a conversation where they acknowledge the weakness of it. Tsuzuki has changed as a writer since 2007.

Eh, the weapons kinda look cool if you like that overdone as heck design.
Soo, having a way to pretty much limit to minimum or non existence any collateral damage to both the property and people while having the greater versatility that physical weapons and suffering little to opposite of decrease in firepower is not a good argument for pure magic? Suuuuuuuuure. And the only ancient history thing that could mitigate it can be worked arround it. Yeah, no real advantage there. We should use more guns, because guns by definition are cool.

Tsuzuki has definitely changed... for the worse plotting wise IMO. he still has kinda a knack for these characters bouncing off one another, but pretty much most plots since A's were wonky and seemed to suffer serious case of let's call it plot creep. Also a serious case of not caring for things which were set in previous things. Which makes it REAAAALY hard for me to have any optimism about his writting any more.

And no, the Eltrians having magic resistance isn't taken from Force either, because the Eltrians aren't actually immune to magical effects like in Force. They can dispel them, particularly binding spells, after seeing them in action and giving their system time to analyze the effect. This is hardly a unique concept, anti-magic magic is extremely common across the fantasy genre. The Eltrians still suffer damage when hit with offensive spells and don't even have access to shield spells themselves, so its not even as effective as the anti-magic fields from StrikerS-- the show I think actually inspired this plot point in the films.

This is inspired by AMF? PFFFFFFFFFT. When have the one antagonist formula user suffered any real damage to a pure magic user? Maybe some stinging from the first attack or something. But pretty much from the on, she might as well bathe in the beam and it won't do shit to her. And they pretty much quickly swap, all of them, to physical weapons from that first fight onwards. This is pretty much 100% what happens in Force. The antagonists (not all Eltorians) might not have actual magic immunity, but it's pretty much are immune to magic due to HAXZORZ. They even lead with the member of a certain familly being first to job to the new magic cancel pathetically.
And this is the universe where they know about AMF. In the same conversation as you mentioned their main issue is AMF. But as we have seen in StrikerS you don't need bulky special equipment to fight AMF foes. Even GaS fellas with some training can overcome it, let alone the Sailing Force or AAS elite.

No, the entire reason for the haxzorz is to a) set up a jobbing thing, which is a bad way to write b) to bring in the elements from Force. Hell they even brough in the body horror angle that Eclipse causes via the life force manipulation shenanigans of certain character. Who is also a bloody mook compared to games.

Except the titular character. And Nove. And Nove's sisters. And then at the climax of the manga Vivio challenges her own mother to an exhibition match, which definitely qualifies as much more than a cameo appearance. Okay, I'll stop now. Vivid has a lot of problems, but a lack of crossover with previous series isn't one of them. I don't actually think all stories set in the Nanoha universe have to have Nanoha in them, they just have to be good stories. And not all stories that have had Nanoha in them have been good.

Have you actually read the manga or are you basing your things on the anime that maybe adapts 30% of the manga's run?
What happened before has about as much relevance to page to page, chapter to chapter going ons as what happened to Vivio, Einhard, Rio, Corona, Miura, Nove, Nove's katana friend, Sieg, Victor, Witch etc. etc. etc. It's pretty much similar in Vivid. Sure there are some characters from StrikerS present, but they are cameos at best that pop up maybe each dozen chapters or something rarely if ever refferencing the past. Hell half of the StrikerS people are pretty damn different to how they were back then so are hardly the same characters. The only relevant things in Vivid from Vivio's background are referenced right in the manga when necessary. TBH, the only moment that one might say was for the fans of previous seasons was that team fight involving the various characters from StrikerS. Apart from that for the rest of the manga they rarely appear or are relevant.

Also, who's saying stories have to have Nanoha in them to be good? Next thing I expect you to acuse me of being salty that Nanoha lost to someone or something. For the record, I'm fine with that if it makes sense and isn't some jobbing nonsense or doesn't make much sense.

Now these criticisms I can agree with, although I've haven't gotten all the way through Force. Knowing that it never properly ended and the criticisms I've heard from numerous sources just saps any motive I have for finishing what exists of it. I do think, however, that the resolution of Vivio's duel with Nanoha was clever, because it subverts the very idea that Vivio could "win" a fight with her own mother. Vivio knows that under the DSA's rules she would have been declared the loser, and Nanoha subtly throwing the fight by taking advantage of the rules of this particular fight shows how close they are-- Nanoha would never let serious harm come to someone she loves, especially over something so silly. Given Nanoha's reputation for beating the ever loving crap out of her future friends, its a side of her we rarely get to see.

I feel like you might have liked the ideas of Force judging from your responses here, if maybe not it's execution or the fact it will most defnitely never get closure despite it still being officialy "on hiatus so mangaka could do this other manga for them" and in the meanwhile the mangaka has waaay moved on.

Oh boy Vivio vs. Nanoha. If I had to sum it up, the entire lead up to that felt like the writter scrambling to make out of MC a credible threat after having her be an under powered technical fist fighter for like half the manga that wasn't anywhere close the top rankings, and now for the closure he wants this flightless punch girl with limited ranged options to go against a dedicated Air Force Ace specializing in ranged destruction and aerial dogfights... Oh and the Ace has a far larger mana capacity since the MC kinda got nerfed. And we are supposed to believe it will be an actual ALL OUT fight, where the Ace won't be holding back.

After that any ending other than unfortunate but realistic anhilation (non lethal) of MC would be ridiculous. IF the MC had actually fought her way to the top of her discipline legitimately and have gathered the expirience and actual credible wins against top fighters introduced in the beggining, I might see her being able to have a chance, maybe, if she has an actual plan, that isn't based on her friends specifically making the arena in such a way that Ace couldn't just climb to like couple thousands of ft and begin systematic bombardment with impunity which the punch lady would have no real way to effectively respond to.

And saying "oh Nanoha was just holding back" would work, except the whole lead up to, and the actual fight points to otherwise. That Nanoha meant to face her straight on because MC demanded it from her, and it would be bad of her to treat her as a kid any more. Which is pretty much what she says and how she acts given that she does go all in with using her highest caliber bombardment attacks. Except now attacks that defeated people powered by entire ancient relics of incalculable power can't put down a scrappy fist puncher, for some reason.