Beto says the quiet part out loud.

[Yukaphile]

@LittleRaven Sanders' voters were pro-gun all the way.

[LittleRaven]

Seemed to work for other countries where citizens stopped prioritizing guns. Of course, I'm sure hard lining gun enthusiasts view them as "cowards" that "gave up their freedom" to bear arms or whatever nonsense.

The jury remains out on that. The Weimar Republic disarmed most German citizens...I'm not sure history would look on that government as a success story. Cuba disarmed its people in 1959...another case of distinctly mixed results. And of course, Venezuela cracked down heavily on private arms in 2012...but people aren't exactly breaking down the door to get into THAT country these days.

I mention this not to suggest that gun control is inherently evil or precedes disaster, but just to caution that disarming the populace is not a panacea either. Most of what I suspect you would consider "success stories" are very, VERY young when it comes to the lifespans of nations.

[Admiral X]

Seemed to work for other countries where citizens stopped prioritizing guns. Of course, I'm sure hard lining gun enthusiasts view them as "cowards" that "gave up their freedom" to bear arms or whatever nonsense.

It's sure worked out awesome for Venezuela.

[Makeshift Python]

Seemed to work for other countries where citizens stopped prioritizing guns. Of course, I'm sure hard lining gun enthusiasts view them as "cowards" that "gave up their freedom" to bear arms or whatever nonsense.

It's sure worked out awesome for Venezuela.

Ah, Venezuela. The go-to country for conservatives to shout "SEEEEEE???? SEEEE???"

[Admiral X]

Just one of many countries. Of course all I really have to point to is Wounded Knee to make my point.

[Darth Wedgius]

Seemed to work for other countries where citizens stopped prioritizing guns. Of course, I'm sure hard lining gun enthusiasts view them as "cowards" that "gave up their freedom" to bear arms or whatever nonsense.

It's sure worked out awesome for Venezuela.

Ah, Venezuela. The go-to country for conservatives to shout "SEEEEEE???? SEEEE???"

Let me fix that for you:

The latest go-to country for conservatives to shout "SEEEEEE???? SEEEE???"

But of course that can be countered with the following list of command economies showing excellent performance:

[Makeshift Python]

Seemed to work for other countries where citizens stopped prioritizing guns. Of course, I'm sure hard lining gun enthusiasts view them as "cowards" that "gave up their freedom" to bear arms or whatever nonsense.

It's sure worked out awesome for Venezuela.

Ah, Venezuela. The go-to country for conservatives to shout "SEEEEEE???? SEEEE???"

Let me fix that for you:

The latest go-to country for conservatives to shout "SEEEEEE???? SEEEE???"

But of course that can be countered with the following list of command economies showing excellent performance:

And Admiral X would tell you they don't count because something something.

[AllanO]

The jury remains out on that. The Weimar Republic disarmed most German citizens...I'm not sure history would look on that government as a success story. Cuba disarmed its people in 1959...another case of distinctly mixed results. And of course, Venezuela cracked down heavily on private arms in 2012...but people aren't exactly breaking down the door to get into THAT country these days.

I mention this not to suggest that gun control is inherently evil or precedes disaster, but just to caution that disarming the populace is not a panacea either. Most of what I suspect you would consider "success stories" are very, VERY young when it comes to the lifespans of nations.

Your Venezuela example is odd because I sense you do not think things were great there before 2012, but maybe I misjudged you and you are a huge Chavez fan.

Still it seems the example is not one of disarmament proceeding disaster as occurring in the middle of the disaster or when the disaster was already pretty far along.

Also I call base rate fallacy. It could easily be the case that most countries that disarm do not see more authoritarianism, economic collapse or whatever. Disarming may not even correlate with disaster more than doing nothing or arming.

Also there is the danger of common cause (one of the reasons correlation does not equal causation) I bet lots of places see a huge upswing in private weapons sales before civil wars and the like, but of course that is because the same breakdown that causes civil wars causes people to buy guns. Likewise it could be that governments that lean authoritarian like to ban guns and strip other freedoms also, but the banning guns may not actually help them do the other things. I can give examples of authoritarian countries that also had a highly armed populace (Afghanistan under the Taliban etc.) I want some proof of the intersectional nature of gun rights or like a causal story backed up by evidence.

[LittleRaven]

Also I call base rate fallacy. It could easily be the case that most countries that disarm do not see more authoritarianism, economic collapse or whatever. Disarming may not even correlate with disaster more than doing nothing or arming.

I think we're arguing the same point. I am not claiming that gun control causes or even necessarily proceeds disaster...I am merely responding to Makeshift Python's claim that gun control "Seemed to work for other countries where citizens stopped prioritizing guns."

Sometimes it seems to work fine. (at least, for relatively short time spans) Australia is pretty nice place to live, as are most Western European countries. Sometimes it doesn't work out so well, as my previous examples demonstrated, though I can no doubt find more. (bad governments tend to prioritize to disarming their populations) Sometimes countries are highly successful with armed populations (Hello, United States!)...sometimes they aren't. (Oh, high Somalia!) Overall, I suspect that most of what makes a country successful is at best tangential to gun control.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

LittleRaven, I like it better when you use bold instead of caps to emphasize words.