ENT - Bound

[clearspira]

and I did understand everything ClearSpira,

I just cut around the fluff and feathers to get to your point.

Now you can disprove me here by showing that you do indeed think keeping all forms of fan service in media is fine.

But I think that'd clash with your "I don't like it" mantra from earlier

Let me take a wild guess here: YOU cannot look at something that you dislike without wanting to erase it, so naturally you assume that others cannot either. For the record I take a ''who the fuck am I to tell people what they should like'' approach to most things, resorting merely to moan on forums such as these about things that annoy me. Because at the end of the day, who the fuck am I to tell you that ignoring the production backstories of (for example) Leia's metal bikini is wrong? Who the fuck am I to tell you that Carrie Fisher's emotional distress should cloud your fap? I am merely a humble messenger imparting upon you my opinions as I sit here sipping a lovely cup of tea.

Now repeat after me:
''I will not project my opinions onto others''
''I will not project my opinions onto others''
''I will not project my opinions onto others''
...
''I will not project my opinions onto others''

[Admiral X]

Are you going to tell me that you know whats best for people now?

Never claimed to.

While saying you don't like fan service

Never said that.

And saying that women who are rapists are victims

Never said that either.

At the same time as you try and say you're not doing these things?

Have fun trying to quote mine me.

Because if you are...well you're not showing people a good front, after all I'm being polite and calm with all of you, I'm not swearing and I'm not insulting people.

You certainly don't come off as calm, but misrepresenting what people have said is hardly polite, and could definitely be classified as insulting whether you use profanity or not.

Oh and I've already shown that you're okay with removing fan service, because "it isn't needed and detracts from the plot" you've mentioned several things from TPols catsuit to the stuff in Space Battleship Yamato - nice attempt at trying to show weeb cred btw. But if you want to do that, try mentioning something even less well known, like Starzinger, I mean the princess in that is practically naked half the time.

I used an example to try to explain what it was I meant, but the point seems to have sailed right over your head.

Hay, I'm not the one who came at a person for saying Chuck was using doublethink on three rapists and calling them victims...

All I did was try to clarify what he probably meant based on my own understanding of what he said.

And that's why - every time - I've said something I've added "I know what I'm doing and I'm okay with it".
See what I did was "paraphrase" you, you didn't directly say that because TPol is in a catsuit she's an idiot, you suggested that because she's in it, she isn't to be taken seriously.

Which is a great example of how you misrepresent what I actually say.

And the best part is, I'm not doing anything horrible here, I'm not being offensive, I'm not being rude, I'm not being a bully or harasser.

Yes you have and are. You've also illustrated that you are completely intolerant of other peoples' ideas and opinions.

I'm just calmly and carefully explaining why you think you have the right to dictate what a fandom wants.

It's pretty rich to see you accuse me of this while you yourself basically tell people to fuck off out of the fandom if they're critical of any aspect of a show. Kind of comes off as dictating what a fandom is supposed to want, doesn't it?

See there's something I purposely left out with my statements about the things I don't watch.

I'm a very big Star Trek fan, all the series, all the movies I've had them all on both VHS and DVD's in my life and I hate having to walk away from the series that gives me so much joy.

but I do it because if I were to watch Discovery, I wouldn't be able to watch it without going "Spock doesn't have a sister" "why didn't they have spore drive at Wolf 359/during Voyager" "why are they doing a nationalist movement in a interstellar empire?" "why do the Klingons look like nothing we've seen before?" and many other things

That's funny, because I don't like STD either, and my response is to continue liking the things I like, and to poke fun at STD for its pretentiousness and horrible writing.

YOU have stated that because of TPol wearing a catsuit and other fan service items, that rather than NOT WATCH. YOU want those things to change.

No, I'm being critical of something and explaining how I would have done things differently had I been in charge.

There's a key difference between me and you, Admiral.

Yeah, you have a much more binary thought process.

I don't want to control what other people enjoy.

Sure you do. You've repeatedly told people that because they don't like some aspect of a show they otherwise enjoy that they have to stop watching it.

And this goes for everyone who says something as superficial as "fan service should be removed". None of you actually care about anything or anyone other than number 1, yourself and only yourselves.

And that, that is what this has been ultimately about.

Have fun arguing with that straw man.

[lightningbarer]

Let me take a wild guess here: YOU cannot look at something that you dislike without wanting to erase it, so naturally you assume that others cannot either. For the record I take a ''who the fuck am I to tell people what they should like'' approach to most things, resorting merely to moan on forums such as these about things that annoy me. Because at the end of the day, who the fuck am I to tell you that ignoring the production backstories of (for example) Leia's metal bikini is wrong? Who the fuck am I to tell you that Carrie Fisher's emotional distress should cloud your fap? I am merely a humble messenger imparting upon you my opinions as I sit here sipping a lovely cup of tea.

No you see, I understand the world doesn't revolve around me, ClearSpira.

If something upsets me or if something bothers me, I turn away from it rather than complain and cry about how it needs to change.
Because if people do nothing but complain, nothing happens other than the thing I like turning into a hellish fire of complaining and moaning.

If people go "well that turned to hell very quickly, I will go over here and watch something that is actually entertaining to me." enmasse, the thing that was broken enough to drive people away will end and the people who made it will learn from it and make better decisions next time.

Now as to the "oh no think of the-" arguments, I have to ask you this simple question, ClearSpira.

was Carrie Fisher forced to have that bikini on or go through the hellish dieting to maintain a trim figure?

And by "forced" I don't mean pressured, I mean did someone literally threaten her life if she didn't do these things? because if she wasn't given the option of "if you don't do this, we'll kill you." she made the decision to stay in that situation and part of the blame there is on her.

Do I feel sorry that she suffered for a trim figure and killer body in that bikini? Sure I do. But no more than I do for the boxers or athletes who have to cut weight to makea weight class for a competition or event. They go through the same grueling ordeal to have the results they want.

How can you sit there and make out that Carrie Fisher is so juvenile that she didn't have the ability to say "no, I'm not going to do this." because if she just said that and walked away, George and his fellow "evil men" who "forced her to do this" would have been stuck. She was a face of Star Wars and if she'd had more understanding of that, she'd not have had to face that problem.

[lightningbarer]

Never claimed to.

yes you did

Wever said that.

yes you did, when quoted it doesn't change even if you change your posts(just sayin in case you try something)

Never said that either.

Yep, you did, you said TPol was an idiot just because she wasn't in the clothing you liked

Have fun trying to quote mine me.

its not quotemining, its paraphrasing - please get that right.

You certainly don't come off as calm, but misrepresenting what people have said is hardly polite, and could definitely be classified as insulting whether you use profanity or not.

well I'm certain that you don't like being contradicted so you read into things quite a lot. I've not used foul language and I've not personally attacked you.
the people who are supporting your case have though, several times too.

I used an example to try to explain what it was I meant, but the point seems to have sailed right over your head.

No, you failed at trying to make a point, I then gave you ample examples of what makes a comparison and what makes a "good" anime series that also has fan service.
You tried talking about something you likely have limited knowledge and understanding of - likely through Chucks reviews - and you thought you were being clever. You weren't.

All I did was try to clarify what he probably meant based on my own understanding of what he said.

Yeah and I disagreed with you, I pointed out the parts that don't make sense and you refused to budge on that because - for some reason - you think women are equally the most oppressed group in society and a thing that doesn't deserve to have people worship the attractive figure.

Which is a great example of how you misrepresent what I actually say.

Its not a misrepresentation, its - as I said here - a "paraphrase" see, I don't think you understand what that word means so I'll leave an image of what it means at the bottom.

Yes you have and are. You've also illustrated that you are completely intolerant of other peoples' ideas and opinions.

You don't like being told you're wrong. That's not bullying. I'm not going out of my way on this forum to keep talking with you and you don't HAVE to reply to the things I say. You have the power to ignore me if you want.
And no, I'm not "intolerant" of peoples ideas, I "disagree" with people and there's plenty I don't have long drawn out debates with.
The funny thing is that you have tried to do this several times now, stating that you've been insulted for being a Nazi and now for being a feminist on this forum.(you still are using feminist logic and acting like a "poor oppressed" feminist when called out btw)
Why do you keep allowing people who you don't know, hurt you like this? I've been insulted plenty of times in this thread and I laugh it off.
Mainly because when someone resorts to that level of pettiness, they show how bereft of ideas they are.

I
It's pretty rich to see you accuse me of this while you yourself basically tell people to fuck off out of the fandom if they're critical of any aspect of a show. Kind of comes off as dictating what a fandom is supposed to want, doesn't it?

well, first off nice paraphrase there and ultimately that's the point of it. So what's wrong with saying that?
If a fandom that has something you don't like in it, why should a person stay in that fandom?

See I'm glad you said this because its kinda the best segue into the ultimate point of something.

What you're saying here is that - regardless of whether or not it offends you - you should watch because its the show you like.
The show that creates things that you find offensive, you're still willing to watch.

Why would you watch something that offends you?
Could it be that you are looking for something to "belong to"?
Because most people - sci-fi fans included in this - aren't offended, see no problem in the things you find offensive and don't want to see them disappear. Because to them, its not a problem at all.

So why should these people give way to you? Aren't you the problem really here? When the simpler solution is to walk away from the thing you find offensive and find something else to like?
But then where would you get the attention and be "hip" and "cool" right?

People like yourself Admiral X want to take things from others, rather than give things to others. you're an invading problem that comes with the social media generation, where attention and desire to be seen weigh heavier on your mind than your enjoyment.
Rather than realise there's a plethora of series out there and a massive amount of people who like them, you jump on a trend because its popular on sites like twitter, reddit, tumblr and facebook. Not because you yourself like it, but because you want to be part of a cool in-group.

Then, when you are in, you start demanding things change, not understanding why people are leaving in droves to find other things.
And never once wondering whether its YOU that is causing it.

That's funny, because I don't like STD either, and my response is to continue liking the things I like, and to poke fun at STD for its pretentiousness and horrible writing.

I cannot understand why a person would subject themselves to a pain of seeing something that annoys them and is defiling a thing they like.
I guess masochists would enjoy that on some level and if that's your thing, that's your thing. But then...why would a masochist want to have the things that cause pain removed if they enjoy the pain?

Again, doesn't make sense, if the series annoys you and you watch it, then complain about the annoyance, you're the problem, not the series. Star Trek Discovery has its fans, let them have their crappy iditoic show that is fan fiction levels of cringe.

No, I'm being critical of something and explaining how I would have done things differently had I been in charge.

No, you're not, you're complaing about something you don't like and wanting it removed. Would you prefer it if I said you were a "killjoy"?
See a critic is a person who takes apart an entire work and judges it based on all of it.
You jump on the sexy female outfit and say that Enterprise is the same as the ecchi anime Kanazuki No Miko, because they both "treat women like objects" or something similar.

You aren't being critical, you're crying because something isn't the way you want it to be.

Yeah, you have a much more binary thought process.

Nope, I don't expend energy complaining about things I cannot fix.
ST:D pisses me off just as much as the recent 2 years of Dr Who, just as much as the Disney Star Wars and the JJ Trek.
I saw that they were installing nationalism in a interstellar empire I walked away, I saw "mansplaining" in Who I walked away, I saw a Mah-Rey-Sue as a central character I walked away, I saw the typical action of JJ Abrams in copying others work with less skill, I. WALKED. AWAY

It hurt to do that, because each of those shows/movies were something important to me. But rather than watch something I love degenerate into something unrecognisable, I decided to cut the pain off at the source and let it be. I've been through the pain with personal stuff and family, I don't need to see something that gave me joy in entertainment turn into something without focus and insane.

And more than anything else, fans all over the world have been doing the same thing. Leaving people like yourself in a fandom that no longer exists, so you don't realise the problem and keep doing it, moving from place to place, destroying the things that others built up and then blaming everyone else for why things go badly.

Because the term "self reflection" is alien to those who act like you do.

Sure you do. You've repeatedly told people that because they don't like some aspect of a show they otherwise enjoy that they have to stop watching it.

No I haven't.
What I said was "if it offends you so much". Every time. I didn't ever say "if you don't like this one thing."
Because I'm sure there are people in the fandom who roll their eyes at fan service and think its "beneath their thing"
But they don't shame it and try and get it removed. Because they aren't so self obsessed that they think they are the only one who has the right ideas. They "live and let live".

Have fun arguing with that straw man.

You don't know what a straw man is do you....
I stated that if you hate fan service in a series that it has it in, you aren't a real fan of that series, that you think you're better than the people in the fandom who do like those things. So if you want me to spell it out for you...
Why would you wan to be part of a fandom that has such people in it who are "beneath you"?

We both know why those like yourself do this, Admiral X. You do it so you can be part of a group, rather than be on your own with no one to talk to.

[Fixer]

*snip*

lightningbarer reading back through your post history all you've done is troll and derail this thread and discussion.
I'm throwing you a warning and a week ban. Don't post in this thread again. If you do similar again I'll just assume you're only here in bad faith and I'll make it permanent.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

lol

[Dargaron]

So, now that the thread isn't being clogged up...

It seems to me that the Orions as presented in Enterprise are almost tailor-made to be rivals to the Ferengi. Both races have vast, interspecies criminal underworlds, but the Ferengi are radical misogynists while the Orions are a matriarchy. The Ferengi also place a lot more emphasis on the "industrial capitalist" motif than the Orions' "oriental slaveholder" niche, which means each society is close enough to recognize the other as a threat, but not close enough to find common ground or respect one another.

Am I reading too much into it?

[AndrewGPaul]

My take is that the Ferengi were intended to be the Golden Age of Capitalism in space, while the Orions are more like Barbary pirates in space. While Star Trek was sold as Wagon Train To The Stars, the whole feel evokes 18th and 19th-century European oceanic exploration. You’ve got Kirk and his crew mostly off on their own having adventures and not often reporting to anyone else, and then here’s these green guys causing trouble. Never an existential threat to the Federation as a whole, but not quite easy to be sorted out once and for all.

[TGLS]

With regard to Orions vs. Ferengi, that's probably an interesting direction that you could bring the Orions in if you wanted to use the species as anything but background color (ho ho).

[Mecha82]

I do think that pirates is how Orions are also shown to be in Starfleet Command games so comparing them to that is accurate.