Picard - Remembrance

[Madner Kami]

The way I look at it, the Federation has a lot of people but not a lot of citizens want to fight or -given that most of the founder worlds have been through massive global holocausts in their past- are even that much in favour of standing armies. The various Empires have smaller numbers of worlds to draw on, but those populations have larger percentages of people willing to fight. The Federation looked at war and said it was the last resort, the bad guys looked at war and though "yeehaw, sounds good to me" and so they pretty much balance each other out. A more military minded Federation would end up being the worst tyrant the Galaxy had ever seen, and knowing that is why Starfleet resisted putting the military mission at its forefront.

I can subscribe to that. If the Federation ever gets into the mindset of a total war, then things would get ugly for everyone who's not a friend. Think about Japan and the US in World War 2. The Japs seemed like a foe that could really win a traditional war at face value (seen relative from the point in time), but they simply couldn't and their one mistake was, to give the US a reason to actually stop half-assing things. It ended with the Japanese being essentially a satellite-state by grace of the most powerful nation on Earth since... ever (at that point in time).

This is nicely reflected in the Dominion War even, if you ask me. For one, the Dominion is an opponent of the scale of the Federation, except that it has a mindset of total war. And it seems to me, that the Federation is the prime target of pretty much all Dominion Attacks (it's more or less even stated in the DS9 series). I can't remember the show ever talking about how Romulans or Klingons lost actual planets. It's Betazed here, Benzar there, Earth being 9/11'd by the Breen and so on an on and yet still in the end, somehow Starfleet is the biggest player around, while the Klingons and even the Romulans end up in a severely weakend state post-war. That's all because one state has reserves it could mobilize (in terms of industrial and scientific power and manpower), while the others were in the exact same state that Japan used to be on the Eve of Pearl Harbour. They have a lot of power, but they can't replace it and what's gone is gone and will need a long time to be replaced.

[hammerofglass]

The way I look at it, the Federation has a lot of people but not a lot of citizens want to fight or -given that most of the founder worlds have been through massive global holocausts in their past- are even that much in favour of standing armies. The various Empires have smaller numbers of worlds to draw on, but those populations have larger percentages of people willing to fight. The Federation looked at war and said it was the last resort, the bad guys looked at war and though "yeehaw, sounds good to me" and so they pretty much balance each other out. A more military minded Federation would end up being the worst tyrant the Galaxy had ever seen, and knowing that is why Starfleet resisted putting the military mission at its forefront.

I can subscribe to that. If the Federation ever gets into the mindset of a total war, then things would get ugly for everyone who's not a friend. Think about Japan and the US in World War 2. The Japs seemed like a foe that could really win a traditional war at face value (seen relative from the point in time), but they simply couldn't and their one mistake was, to give the US a reason to actually stop half-assing things. It ended with the Japanese being essentially a satellite-state by grace of the most powerful nation on Earth since... ever (at that point in time).

This is nicely reflected in the Dominion War even, if you ask me. For one, the Dominion is an opponent of the scale of the Federation, except that it has a mindset of total war. And it seems to me, that the Federation is the prime target of pretty much all Dominion Attacks (it's more or less even stated in the DS9 series). I can't remember the show ever talking about how Romulans or Klingons lost actual planets. It's Betazed here, Benzar there, Earth being 9/11'd by the Breen and so on an on and yet still in the end, somehow Starfleet is the biggest player around, while the Klingons and even the Romulans end up in a severely weakend state post-war. That's all because one state has reserves it could mobilize (in terms of industrial and scientific power and manpower), while the others were in the exact same state that Japan used to be on the Eve of Pearl Harbour. They have a lot of power, but they can't replace it and what's gone is gone and will need a long time to be replaced.

As a counterexample, in Yesterday's Enterprise the Federation was in a decades-long total war with just the Klingons and somehow losing.

I'm pretty sure the real reason behind it is that nobody thought through the details beyond the immediate needs of the episode they were writing until it was too late. Until they started doing massive political plotlines, "Klingons are from Quo'nos" worked fine. The problem is that afterwards they kept doing it and never bothered to introduce anything else beyond tiny outposts, to the point where it came off kind of like "the British Empire is just London".

[Madner Kami]

That is always a problem, sadly.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

I'm sorry for the Discovery bashing to follow but I really need to get it of my chest given that we're talking wars and empires:

In Discovery's time:

The Federation is a united political entity with a singular "defense force" (I don't want to get into the is SF an army or not debate) into which every Federation member pours it's resources. SF has a unified command structure, no political disunity, and has been working as a singular force.

The Klingons are basically 24 little feudal empires who happen to share a planet and a race. Before the Federation both the Vulcans and Andorians could keep them in check on their own and this was when the Empire was more united. Discovery is aprox 100 years in the future and regards those times as better days. Each House has a separate fleet, who have never trained together, who fight one another. They have different ship types with different logistical needs, they keep technologies secret from one another.

And yet Discovery paints the war as "oh fighting those Klingons is so hard, the fact that they're barely on the same side and rarely houses unite to launch operations makes them SO DIFFICULT to fight."

I mean what ?

Realistically the Federation would have used their unified larger navy to overwhelm the smallest houses, those would have been defeated and the whole Klingon unity would have collapsed with houses seeing the writing on the wall.

But nope they had to hype the Klingons so the Fderation jobbed.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Gotta say, I never understood, how one could go so far and even like "The Orville". Honestly - I don't care, if Robert Picardo, Marina Sirtis and Penny Johnson are in that show or Jonathan Frakes does the directing. It is a pseudo-Trek-Show by the guy, who does Family Guy and I watched some episodes of that show and didn't find it even remotely funny. Sorry, I'm just not a guy, who thinks, that comedy, concerning bodily fluids is that hilarious. I would even go that far and say: they're damn unfunny.

I don't find jokes about vomit funny, about urine, feces, about sperm...

You can say what you want about the new Trek Shows - but they're still more Trek than this Family-Guy-Rip-Off will ever be, even if there are Trek Alumni working on that show.

Different tastes for different folks I suppose. I'm not the hugest fan of Family Guy's humor myself being a totally mature adult, totally, (really though I just prefer American Dad, less cut away humor) but what sells The Orville to me is not the humor. Oh sure some is fine and some is a bit disgusting but what really makes the show enjoyable for me is the sci-fi exploration with a sense of optimism. Despite what the ads for the show seemed to imply its not a wacky screwball comedy but a sci-fi show with humor.

Which is why I think its more Trek then the current Treks. Both current Treks are about dark and gritty end of the universe/Federation crap where few people are likable, full of murder, rape, war crimes, and more war then freaking Star Wars. Too much of the real world in the shows and I don't just mean the allegories, allegories are a staple of Trek and can be enjoyable if done well, I meaning just how dark and depressing the shows are. If I wanted something dark and depressing I'd turn on the news, I'd go read twitter posts, or go watch some Youtube videos where some bearded gnome says such and such side are the devil and are completely against whatever you believe in so panic and panic hard, also buy Raycons and play RAID SHADOW LEGENDS.

Perhaps is juvenile to want it but I like a bit of escapism in fiction, to transport me to a fantastical world where we aren't living in the middle of constant social unrest thats ramped up recently, toxic political extremists, and toxic politics to the point we have a Presidential race between a carrot and a prune who both are accused of sexual assault and both talk like they are escaped mental patients. Its nice to be in a world for a hour or a half hour where none of that stuff matters.

Picard and STD its the same shit as the real world but........ IN SPACE!!!!! Completely misses the point of Trek, of a brighter tomorrow where humanity has evolved, where even when we stumble we try to be better.

Not saying its wrong to enjoy those shows but at least I and some others prefer The Orville and think it feels more Trek, it feels more optimistic and some people appreciate that despite the semen and urine jokes.

The Gross-Out-Humour, even if it is very little, makes me detest that show. I don't get any optimism out of this debacle. I'm getting more optimism out of the little details of Picard and Discovery, that show us "No matter how dark it gets - and it gets dark - in the end, we as a society come out not self-destructed, but changed and on top."

And no, it is not juvenile to want a bit of escapism - IMHO, it is juvenile to laugh about jokes concerning bodily functions.

[Link8909]

The Gross-Out-Humour, even if it is very little, makes me detest that show. I don't get any optimism out of this debacle. I'm getting more optimism out of the little details of Picard and Discovery, that show us "No matter how dark it gets - and it gets dark - in the end, we as a society come out not self-destructed, but changed and on top."

And no, it is not juvenile to want a bit of escapism - IMHO, it is juvenile to laugh about jokes concerning bodily functions.

I absolutely agree with you here, while I haven't seen The Orville beyond SFDbris's reviews and a few clips, it hasn't wowed me into watching it, it does just look like The Next Generation but a bit funnier, and even then it's wasn't that funny to me, if I wanted to watch The Next Generation, I'd watch The Next Generation, not diet Next Generation.

As much as I hear about how dark Star Trek Discovery and Star Trek Picard, I appreciate that they are trying to do something new with the franchise, rather than doing the same thing that The Next Generation, Voyager and Enterprise did, I'd rather these new shows stand on their own merits than continue to run a formula that has already been treaded.

And I'm ok with Season 1 of Star Trek Picard having a dark tone to it, not just because it does have a positive ending as you say, but we are going to get other Star Trek series in the future, Season 3 of Discovery is going to a have a different tone to it, Strange New Worlds is being promoted as a return to classic trek, we have a comedy series with Lower Decks and a family friendly animated series in development, so I thing we can have Star Trek Picard touch on some dark elements of the franchise much like Deep Space Nine did when it was airing along side The Next Generation and Voyager.

[CrypticMirror]

f I wanted to watch The Next Generation, I'd watch The Next Generation, not diet Next Generation.

But they ain't making anymore Next Generation; if they were then I'd watch it. Since they ain't, then ORV is the next best thing.

[FlynnTaggart]

The Gross-Out-Humour, even if it is very little, makes me detest that show. I don't get any optimism out of this debacle. I'm getting more optimism out of the little details of Picard and Discovery, that show us "No matter how dark it gets - and it gets dark - in the end, we as a society come out not self-destructed, but changed and on top."

And no, it is not juvenile to want a bit of escapism - IMHO, it is juvenile to laugh about jokes concerning bodily functions.

Thats certainly understandable, gross out humor by its very nature can be gross and hard to watch. Though to be fair to the Orville there is nothing I recall like the vomit scene of FG, the semen joke was some alien squiring some blue fluid out of his head (top head, not bottom) and the pee joke was not graphic.

The optimism comes from the future being better. For all our current problems the 2000s are still (so far) better then the 1900s, much better then the 1800s in social problems, science, technology, and progress of all types. The future should hopefully be even better, not a return to the bad old days of brutal war, horrific injury, crippling poverty, deadly racism and genocide that even now despite all our accomplishments hasn't completely moved past (still waiting on that sequel to World War 2 no doubt directed by Micheal Bay). STD and Picard shows the future as just as bad if not worse, Discovery has society come out alright just because its a prequel and destroying the Federation is a bit of breaking canon even those guys won't do and Picard shows a society that is broken as heck complete with drug addicts living in trailers.

DS9 was dark while still showing the future could be brighter, despite a massive war and bending if not breaking of the rules and values of the Federation the people still tried to do what was right, still in the end things were going to be all right. The worlds of Discovery and Picard are not just dark in my opinion but depressing.

I'll admit I do laugh at bodily function jokes but atleast with the Orville that is the worst part and not because they are gross, just the show itself in my opinion is fantastic without having to appeal to the Family Guy "flatulence is the height of humor" crowd. I do find farts funny as I despite being only a few years from middle age still apparently has the mind of a middle schooler but I certainly don't want the show for that sort of stuff. The show is far less juvenile then the trailers made it seem.

[bronnt]

I'm curious because I didn't actually watch: Did Dahj actually receive the job title of "scientist" or was that a Chuck joke? Nobody ever posts a job listing as "Scientist." What's her field? Is she an astrophysicist? Cellular Biologist? Experimental Warp Theory Research? Or is this a stupid writer who wants to assert that he's into science, so he just inserts the word "science" into his writing without understanding it?

[Link8909]

f I wanted to watch The Next Generation, I'd watch The Next Generation, not diet Next Generation.

But they ain't making anymore Next Generation; if they were then I'd watch it. Since they ain't, then ORV is the next best thing.

What I mean is that I'd rather watch the original again that another show doing the same thing but slightly different, The Next Generation didn't disappear when it ended and a lot of the episodes are still fantastic.

I'm curious because I didn't actually watch: Did Dahj actually receive the job title of "scientist" or was that a Chuck joke? Nobody ever posts a job listing as "Scientist." What's her field? Is she an astrophysicist? Cellular Biologist? Experimental Warp Theory Research? Or is this a stupid writer who wants to assert that he's into science, so he just inserts the word "science" into his writing without understanding it?

I watch the scene again and she got into robotics, specifically in artificially intelligence and quantum consciousness, the first being obvious while the other I think translates to storing a mind into a computer, you never know when it comes to quantum, and while their is a ban on creating synthetic life, they said in the episode that the Daystrom Institute can still research and work on the theoretical principles.