Picard - Remembrance

[FlynnTaggart]

Something that doesn't quite sit right with me is the notion that Dahj and her sister are Data's daughters, not sure what the spoiler policy is here but a lot of people worked to build them.

Data's contribution was:
a) technology that was extracted from his corpse after he died
b) a painting he did which formed the basis for the external look of Dahj

Now even with him titling that painting "Daughter" and him willingly contributing to Maddox's research it's very iffy to me if he wanted to have Dahj and Asha, yes he definitely wanted Lal and he built her himself but the androids that were built much later after his death ?

But I understand that having Data's children as opposed to some generic androids is guaranteed to draw in Picard and more importantly draw in the audience, and this to me is a form of bad/lazy writing the writers were hedging their bets and linking new characters to the old to have that instant bond to the audience.

Data himself is a product of technology so his origin is different from biologicals, less direct, and its possible alot of people built him. Tools used to build him were built by others, Soong might have had assistants or colleagues helping out, and its possible some of his parts were off the shelf from the local Space Radio Shack. But Dr Soong is still his father, thats who gave him life. Data could be their father but so could Bruce Maddox making the show more progressive then I thought.

And while Data was not around to make them him still contributed to them. The droids are kind of like someone born of preserved eggs or sperm of a dead person, the dead person had nothing really to do with their creation beyond donating the genetic material. In some cases it might not even be a donation, I remember reading some cases of parents requesting access to the genetic material of their dead kids like the parents of a West Point cadet who courts authorized to use his sperm after he died in a skiing accident. The cadet will have had zero to do with creating any potential babies, did not even willingly donate his DNA, but they would still be from him and thus he'd be the father.

But yes, its very lazy, giving the characters a connection to a beloved character to make the audience care.

[CrypticMirror]

But yes, its very lazy, giving the characters a connection to a beloved character to make the audience care.

My criticism of Discovery in a nutshell. It is the only reason Mikki is made Spock's sister, to give her an attachment to the old show and hopefully to make the audience care with her. Just like the writer of every other Spock's secret relative fanfic does.

I don't think it applies here though, Dahj isn't given the connection to Data for the sake of the audience for the audience's sake but for Picard's. Then killed for the same reason, to make Picard care more. Which I really object to. She didn't need to die, Picard would still have gone on all the same knowledge quests if she was still alive. Picard would still have gone out to help her find her sister. It was lazy writing that killed her. And sadly it isn't the last bit of lazy writing in the show.

[FlynnTaggart]

But yes, its very lazy, giving the characters a connection to a beloved character to make the audience care.

My criticism of Discovery in a nutshell. It is the only reason Mikki is made Spock's sister, to give her an attachment to the old show and hopefully to make the audience care with her. Just like the writer of every other Spock's secret relative fanfic does.

I don't think it applies here though, Dahj isn't given the connection to Data for the sake of the audience for the audience's sake but for Picard's. Then killed for the same reason, to make Picard care more. Which I really object to. She didn't need to die, Picard would still have gone on all the same knowledge quests if she was still alive. Picard would still have gone out to help her find her sister. It was lazy writing that killed her. And sadly it isn't the last bit of lazy writing in the show.

My problem with Dahj's death was not even that she was fridged, I know its a crap trope but I personally don't have a problem with it when done well and meaningfully, but it was a pointless fridging. Build up the character with her connection to Data and therefore her connection to Picard, show her struggle, and then dead. As a motivation its a lazy one but could work, death of a sort of family member kinda. But then they ruin it by having the literal identical twin, later on a bunch of identical or nearly identical Dahj's. You are not given enough to time to really care about Dahj, the main reason you should care is because she is Lal 2.0 but when they ordered Dahj in bulk caring about her is like caring about some random background Clone in the Clone Wars. You only care about the Clones when you get to know them, we didn't get to know Dahj enough to care. She died and who cares, gotta find her twin.

If they just had the not Tal Shiar kidnap Dahj and that was the motivation that might have been better, still crap but quite as stupid (not quite). Heck if they wanted to go with the nostalgia bait they should not instead of having Cylon androids made Dahj a reactivated Lal. Literally Data's daughter that someone kidnapped for nefarious purposes, maybe to make an army of slaves or soldiers, maybe to create a weapon with her positronic brain, who knows but gotta find her.

And certainly STD is guilty of nostalgia bait, especially the second season with the Enterprise, Pike, Spock, and Mystique.

[Link8909]

Ok I’m definitely going to get flack for saying this, but I personally quite liked Spock having Michael Burnham as his adopted sister, it gave us more information on Spock's childhood, more on Sarek and his fascination on humanity, with ties to the Vulcan belief in IDIC, and I did like the dynamic between Spock and Michael, however that is just me and it obviously doesn’t mean everyone was going to be happy with this retcon, as Chuck said, with hindsight it would have been more accepted if Michael was just Sarek’s student.

However, I personally like Dahj and Soji being Data’s daughters and I think it’s handled very well in Star Trek Picard, firstly it is not a retcon, this is a continuation, and second, that it’s not just about Data having children, it’s about Data no longer being the only sentient android, as far as anyone was concerned when Data died back in Star Trek Nemesis, everything he was died with him, with only B-4 left, no more Soong Androids, however now with Star Trek Picard, thanks to Bruce Maddox continuing Dr Soong’s work we not only have Data’s daughters, we soon find out there are more sentient androids, that they have even creating they own culture, a race of artificial lifeforms.

Data sometimes would lament on the fact that he was the only one of his kind, thanks to Star Trek
Picard he no longer is, and I’d think (thanks to his Emotion Chip) he’d be happy to know that.

[Artabax]

what I read is - "I'm purposely antagonizing and railing up people watching this show

I feel like you're just misreading what he's saying, although admittedly he might've worded it in a slightly confusing way (at least when its written down in text). He says literally the opposite of doing this, right in the quote that you used. Let's break down what he said:

Sure. To the extent that I was aware of the kind of toxic fandom, the anti-SJW, you know, sad little corner of fandom — you just disregard that.

What I'm reading is: There's a section of toxic fandom/anti-SJW types that are only a small section (a "little corner", in his words) of the fans, and as a writer, he disregards that in his work, because they are, after all, a small subsection.

Sometimes you’re motivated to have things simply because it’s possibly going to piss off or provoke people who seem to have missed the memo about just what exactly “Star Trek” is and always has been all about.

This is a continuation of the above, where he says there's a temptation to respond to such types. He straight up said that you "disregard it". But again, even if they had fallen victim to said temptation...what's the problem? Why should Star Trek be afraid to offend such people? Again, the fear to offend such people was one of the reason Berman-era Trek constantly shot down the idea of having gay couples being depicted even when it made perfect sense (most notably in The Outcast).

if you dislike the changes I bring to the franchise you're a toxic fan who doesn't understand what Trek is about

This is just you putting words in his mouth. I don't get how you could've possibly gotten this out of what he said. He never said anything even remotely close to "people who dislike the show are toxic".

He then goes on to talk about the logic of why they killed characters like Icheb and Hugh- they knew perfectly well that would ruffle some feathers in the long-time fans, but they pushed forward regardless because they felt it furthered the story they had in mind. I don't understand why you ignore that this is the core of the answer to the question about pushing boundaries. This is what is being highlighted when it says Chabon doesn't mind it being divisive.

Obviously if you didn't care for the deaths of Icheb or Hugh, that's fine (I myself was mostly fine with the former but not with the latter), but this article is about Chabon's (and the other writers') thought processes. The point being made here is that they pushed boundaries when they thought it was suitable for the story, even if they thought it might've angered some fans. I don't consider this a bad thing even if the final product leaves a lot to be desired.

Nowhere in there does he lump people who just dislike the show with "toxic fans" or whatever, this is always a problem so many people seem to have. And yeah it sucks he doesn't address your specific concerns or complaints about the show, but how often do writers do that? Actually if I recall, Chabon did respond to the few of them (most notably I recall him responding to the accusation that the Federation is somehow in decline or morally bankrupt in the Picard setting...i'm having a hard time finding that interview atm though).

Yes, he does lump together ALL dislike as toxic. He only mentions two categories, those who bow down and worship him and sacrifice their firstborn children to his memo versus everybody else who is automatically toxic. He does not address specific concerns or complaints because every single concern = toxic from his POV.

In fact this interview is 99 tenths of the SJW of PIC "my way or the highway", the insistence on absolute obedience. The biggest SJW preaching in the actual show was SPOILER episode 5 7 of 9 is a bad person for killing the gangster who killed her friend while simultaneously Agnes is a good person for killing Maddox who had vital information for the mission.

It is very slow, with too much padding - I am a toxic fan.
Time jumps are confusing, they could have put up a caption,"17 years ago", "7 weeks ago" etc but they can't do that it would not be artistic if they explain what is going on - I am a toxic fan.
The whole Skynet Terminator story was already done in DIS - I am a toxic fan.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

what I read is - "I'm purposely antagonizing and railing up people watching this show

I feel like you're just misreading what he's saying, although admittedly he might've worded it in a slightly confusing way (at least when its written down in text). He says literally the opposite of doing this, right in the quote that you used. Let's break down what he said:

Sure. To the extent that I was aware of the kind of toxic fandom, the anti-SJW, you know, sad little corner of fandom — you just disregard that.

What I'm reading is: There's a section of toxic fandom/anti-SJW types that are only a small section (a "little corner", in his words) of the fans, and as a writer, he disregards that in his work, because they are, after all, a small subsection.

Sometimes you’re motivated to have things simply because it’s possibly going to piss off or provoke people who seem to have missed the memo about just what exactly “Star Trek” is and always has been all about.

This is a continuation of the above, where he says there's a temptation to respond to such types. He straight up said that you "disregard it". But again, even if they had fallen victim to said temptation...what's the problem? Why should Star Trek be afraid to offend such people? Again, the fear to offend such people was one of the reason Berman-era Trek constantly shot down the idea of having gay couples being depicted even when it made perfect sense (most notably in The Outcast).

if you dislike the changes I bring to the franchise you're a toxic fan who doesn't understand what Trek is about

This is just you putting words in his mouth. I don't get how you could've possibly gotten this out of what he said. He never said anything even remotely close to "people who dislike the show are toxic".

He then goes on to talk about the logic of why they killed characters like Icheb and Hugh- they knew perfectly well that would ruffle some feathers in the long-time fans, but they pushed forward regardless because they felt it furthered the story they had in mind. I don't understand why you ignore that this is the core of the answer to the question about pushing boundaries. This is what is being highlighted when it says Chabon doesn't mind it being divisive.

Obviously if you didn't care for the deaths of Icheb or Hugh, that's fine (I myself was mostly fine with the former but not with the latter), but this article is about Chabon's (and the other writers') thought processes. The point being made here is that they pushed boundaries when they thought it was suitable for the story, even if they thought it might've angered some fans. I don't consider this a bad thing even if the final product leaves a lot to be desired.

Nowhere in there does he lump people who just dislike the show with "toxic fans" or whatever, this is always a problem so many people seem to have. And yeah it sucks he doesn't address your specific concerns or complaints about the show, but how often do writers do that? Actually if I recall, Chabon did respond to the few of them (most notably I recall him responding to the accusation that the Federation is somehow in decline or morally bankrupt in the Picard setting...i'm having a hard time finding that interview atm though).

Yes, he does lump together ALL dislike as toxic. He only mentions two categories, those who bow down and worship him and sacrifice their firstborn children to his memo versus everybody else who is automatically toxic. He does not address specific concerns or complaints because every single concern = toxic from his POV.

In fact this interview is 99 tenths of the SJW of PIC "my way or the highway", the insistence on absolute obedience. The biggest SJW preaching in the actual show was SPOILER episode 5 7 of 9 is a bad person for killing the gangster who killed her friend while simultaneously Agnes is a good person for killing Maddox who had vital information for the mission.

It is very slow, with too much padding - I am a toxic fan.
Time jumps are confusing, they could have put up a caption,"17 years ago", "7 weeks ago" etc but they can't do that it would not be artistic if they explain what is going on - I am a toxic fan.
The whole Skynet Terminator story was already done in DIS - I am a toxic fan.

Concerning the killing-spree of Seven Of Nine: I call that a "Mutter Bachmeier"-Moment.
Who is Mother Bachmeier?
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Bachmeier[/url]
The short version of it: A man kidnapped and killed her daughter. That guy was caught and they put him on trial. On the third day, Marianne entered, smuggled a gun in the courthouse and killed that guy with said gun.

It is vigilante justice, which you might disapprove of, however - that guy had it coming. Same with the woman, who betrayed Seven and killed Icheb. She had it coming. I have no problems with that - and I have to say, personally, I would've put Jurati on trial for killing Maddox, because she could've just chosen not to kill him. Seven on the other hand had no other choice.

And you're not a toxic fan, if you have constructive criticism - you are a toxic fan, however, if you say "meh, that's just SJW-Bullshit" or if you know, that you want to hate the show and don't want to give it a fair chance. If you know from second one, that you're gonna hate the show and now just saying "I hate the show because of these and those reasons" - then you're a toxic fan.

[MixedDrops]

Yes, he does lump together ALL dislike as toxic.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

He only mentions two categories, those who bow down and worship him and sacrifice their firstborn children to his memo versus everybody else who is automatically toxic.

He mentions criticism in general being difficult to read (something almost any writer would say if they're being honest), but he never mentions that all criticism is toxic. Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

every single concern = toxic from his POV.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

the SJW of PIC "my way or the highway", the insistence on absolute obedience.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

Also if you want me to take you seriously, perhaps start by not using the term "SJW" without any hint of irony.

The biggest SJW preaching in the actual show was SPOILER episode 5 7 of 9 is a bad person for killing the gangster who killed her friend while simultaneously Agnes is a good person for killing Maddox who had vital information for the mission.

The show is very explicit that what Agnes did was wrong (Chabon has clarified in interviews that Agnes will turn herself over to the law, but that is admittedly a flaw with the show that they didn't make that clear enough- but that wasn't your complaint), or at the very least no more right than what Seven did. I'm not sure if you didn't understand that, didn't watch the show, or are just arguing in bad faith, but one could say we have a bit of a pattern going on here right now.

It is very slow, with too much padding - I am a toxic fan.
Time jumps are confusing, they could have put up a caption,"17 years ago", "7 weeks ago" etc but they can't do that it would not be artistic if they explain what is going on - I am a toxic fan.
The whole Skynet Terminator story was already done in DIS - I am a toxic fan.

Quote where Chabon says any of these or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Yes, he does lump together ALL dislike as toxic.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

He only mentions two categories, those who bow down and worship him and sacrifice their firstborn children to his memo versus everybody else who is automatically toxic.

He mentions criticism in general being difficult to read (something almost any writer would say if they're being honest), but he never mentions that all criticism is toxic. Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

every single concern = toxic from his POV.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

the SJW of PIC "my way or the highway", the insistence on absolute obedience.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

Also if you want me to take you seriously, perhaps start by not using the term "SJW" without any hint of irony.

The biggest SJW preaching in the actual show was SPOILER episode 5 7 of 9 is a bad person for killing the gangster who killed her friend while simultaneously Agnes is a good person for killing Maddox who had vital information for the mission.

The show is very explicit that what Agnes did was wrong (Chabon has clarified in interviews that Agnes will turn herself over to the law, but that is admittedly a flaw with the show that they didn't make that clear enough- but that wasn't your complaint), or at the very least no more right than what Seven did. I'm not sure if you didn't understand that, didn't watch the show, or are just arguing in bad faith, but one could say we have a bit of a pattern going on here right now.

It is very slow, with too much padding - I am a toxic fan.
Time jumps are confusing, they could have put up a caption,"17 years ago", "7 weeks ago" etc but they can't do that it would not be artistic if they explain what is going on - I am a toxic fan.
The whole Skynet Terminator story was already done in DIS - I am a toxic fan.

Quote where Chabon says any of these or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

What do you expect?
Artabax just donned the guise of a toxic fan - no wonder, that he argues as such.

[Link8909]

Yes, he does lump together ALL dislike as toxic.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

He only mentions two categories, those who bow down and worship him and sacrifice their firstborn children to his memo versus everybody else who is automatically toxic.

He mentions criticism in general being difficult to read (something almost any writer would say if they're being honest), but he never mentions that all criticism is toxic. Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

every single concern = toxic from his POV.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

the SJW of PIC "my way or the highway", the insistence on absolute obedience.

Quote where Chabon says this or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

Also if you want me to take you seriously, perhaps start by not using the term "SJW" without any hint of irony.

The biggest SJW preaching in the actual show was SPOILER episode 5 7 of 9 is a bad person for killing the gangster who killed her friend while simultaneously Agnes is a good person for killing Maddox who had vital information for the mission.

The show is very explicit that what Agnes did was wrong (Chabon has clarified in interviews that Agnes will turn herself over to the law, but that is admittedly a flaw with the show that they didn't make that clear enough- but that wasn't your complaint), or at the very least no more right than what Seven did. I'm not sure if you didn't understand that, didn't watch the show, or are just arguing in bad faith, but one could say we have a bit of a pattern going on here right now.

It is very slow, with too much padding - I am a toxic fan.
Time jumps are confusing, they could have put up a caption,"17 years ago", "7 weeks ago" etc but they can't do that it would not be artistic if they explain what is going on - I am a toxic fan.
The whole Skynet Terminator story was already done in DIS - I am a toxic fan.

Quote where Chabon says any of these or don't be surprised when you're dismissed as arguing in bad faith.

I definitely agree with the points you made MixedDrops, I've already posted my own general thoughts about the toxic fandom reactions in this forum so I'll be brief, your not a toxic fan for not liking the same pieces of media that other people do, and if people can calmly and respectfully talk about their opinions that's even better, it helps creators improve their work.

Michael Chabon wasn't talking about people who didn't like Star Trek Picard, he was talking about the people that go on a crusade of hatred against not just Star Trek Picard, but any piece of media that is even slightly polarizing, that think because they didn't like something justifies harassing the cast and crew non stop, that belittle other people into thinking the same way as they do though gate keeping tactics and demeaning other peoples intelligence, that use these buzz words unironically so they can bully marginalized or unrepresented people all under the guise of protecting the integrity of the franchise, that don’t actually care about wanting Star Trek to get better, and just either want to get internet famous from easy add revenues, spread hate filled messages or want everyone else to be as hate filled, miserable and cynically as they are.

They aren't helping the franchise, and in fact are hurting the image of the fanbase, painting the rest of the people who are sensible and reasonable as the same as those people, and the sooner they stop getting the attention they so desperately crave, the sooner the fandom can become a better place.

[Link8909]

I've been on an Atop The Fourth Wall binge, and I've just finished watching Linkara's Review of The Real Ghostbusters in Ghostbusters II #1-3, and in it he had a very good line that best describes a toxic fan:

"Well here's the thing about really sour, bitter, horrible people... they just can't wait to share their terribleness with the world when given the prompt."

The story line that is in this review and the ones before it was also about fighting against negative emotions, really great stuff.