TOS - Who Mourns for Adonais?

[MerelyAFan]

https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/s033.php

As far as potential crew vs. ancient gods concepts, I think I would have preferred someone from the Norse mythology. Kirk going against the likes of Loki could have been pretty fun.

Between a senior officer repeatedly getting their ass kicked for his stupidity, the crew on the ship displaying actual competence, and a foolhardy plan whose upside is that not everyone will be killed, this whole script is one lousy Captain's speech away from being an Enterprise story.

[Link8909]

I remember that the Star Trek New Frontier novels followed up on this episode by having Mark McHenry (the Helmsman) a descendant of Apollo and Carolyn Palamas who he impregnated (big oof) and the Greek, Roman, Norse, and, other pantheons came back and were doing the same thing Apollo was doing in this episode, and after realizing that these Gods where powered by faith, Captain Mackenzie Calhoun and the crews of the USS Excalibur and the USS Trident kick their asses because they drained them of faith by not believing in them.

Good times... good times.

[drewder]

My problem with crazy gods episodes is that our heroes always assume that they're morally and intellectually superior than the super powerful immortal being they encounter. Right now we see how it's popular to condem the moral norms of 10 years ago, imagine a society that's existed for millions of years and then thinking they had a lot to learn from you and that there is nothing to learn from them. It's a supreme arrogance which is what the federation is known for.

[AllanO]

In terms of the brief suggestion that humans are now monotheist (we find the one sufficient). It reminds me of how the people who they run into on the 20th century Roman world of Bread and Circuses are Children of the Sun or so they think they are really Children of the Son (Son of God, Christ) as Uhura reveals when she says that in the government broadcasts to discredit them the later day pagan Romans fail to really do so. Suggesting a vaguely pro-Christian ethos to the show there also.

Now that could be all directives from the network, but I find it at least as likely that Gene and co. were in the 60s at least of some vaguely Christian non-denominational view of the "There is at most one god' sort and so put in one or two such pro-Christian plugs here and there suggesting it as an evolved state of mind. However by the time TNG comes around they get more stridently atheist/secularist. Like how the naked American patriotism of the Omega Glory gives way to a somewhat more internationalist flavour of TNG.

One obvious problem with these Ancient Astronaut gods in Star Trek is: why are they fixated on humanity, when there are any number of primitive humanoid civilizations scattered across the galaxy who would happily worship them and do orgies as needed. Why weren't they good enough for Apollo and company? Being a bit too picky if you ask me.

My problem with crazy gods episodes is that our heroes always assume that they're morally and intellectually superior than the super powerful immortal being they encounter. Right now we see how it's popular to condem the moral norms of 10 years ago, imagine a society that's existed for millions of years and then thinking they had a lot to learn from you and that there is nothing to learn from them. It's a supreme arrogance which is what the federation is known for.

I disagree they assume, rather they listen to the beings argument for a bit and decide they are unconvincing, sometimes they seem to leave open the view that there is more to discuss and more to learn. It is usually that circumstance like the aliens being hostile or something that cuts off that sort of research.

What is the alternative they could not listen to arguments? In which case they would indeed be ignoring any insight the civilizations.

Listening to the dictates of the oldest civilization you happen to come across (what you seem to be suggesting), is not a coherent directive unless the oldest civilization you come across this week has that directive, if it does not have that directive then in order to truly respect that civilization you should not adopt that directive and so on.

More seriously the flaw in your premise is that a million year old civilization may have come to a view by dint of a million years of experience, analysis and careful consideration, or they may have been really stubborn and believed the same thing for a million years out of bloody mindedness. Hence why you ask for arguments, if they basically admit the position they take is not due to any superior insight but just one they have bull headly adopted there is certainly no reason to believe it.

In this case I would argue they totally absorbed and followed the philosophy of these guys, which was apparently you should obey people who have physical power of you (hence him smiting Scotty, Kirk and so on all the time). They gained physical power over Apollo therefore Apollo should have obeyed them by the logic of his own philosophy. Not to overpower Apollo and subjugate him to their will when they had the power would have been a rejection of his philosophy.

[JL_Stinger]

Besides this episode and "Space Seed" were there any other TOS episodes featuring a one-off female character who meets the subject of her studies and becomes enraptured by them? Just wondering how much of Trek cliche that was.

[AllanO]

Besides this episode and "Space Seed" were there any other TOS episodes featuring a one-off female character who meets the subject of her studies and becomes enraptured by them? Just wondering how much of Trek cliche that was.

According to Chuck's review of the Alternative Factor (on this site) that was going to be a plot point in the Alternative Factor until someone complained they just did that with Space Seed.

I can't think of any other examples of the top of my head but I would not be shocked if you could think of a few.

[clearspira]

Y'know, i'm an atheist, but the Greek gods are by far the most believable gods I have ever read about. You tell me which is more believable: that humans were invented by an all-loving, all-forgiving creature of mercy and peace; or that humans were invented by a bunch of vain serial rapists, paedophiles, murderers, thieves and slavers? I'll give you a hint: turn on the evening news.

Of course, here in lies the reason why Christianity was so much more appealing than the Greek gods were: worship God and spend eternity free of pain and suffering with your dead relatives and friends. Worship the Greek gods and get very little at all out of the arrangement. Or as Karl Marx said: ''religion is the opium of the masses.'' It allows one to accept all the shit thrown at them by the ruling class in life by promising them paradise when they die. A very neat arrangement back when there really was true inequality in society.

[clearspira]

In terms of the brief suggestion that humans are now monotheist (we find the one sufficient). It reminds me of how the people who they run into on the 20th century Roman world of Bread and Circuses are Children of the Sun or so they think they are really Children of the Son (Son of God, Christ) as Uhura reveals when she says that in the government broadcasts to discredit them the later day pagan Romans fail to really do so. Suggesting a vaguely pro-Christian ethos to the show there also.

Now that could be all directives from the network, but I find it at least as likely that Gene and co. were in the 60s at least of some vaguely Christian non-denominational view of the "There is at most one god' sort and so put in one or two such pro-Christian plugs here and there suggesting it as an evolved state of mind. However by the time TNG comes around they get more stridently atheist/secularist. Like how the naked American patriotism of the Omega Glory gives way to a somewhat more internationalist flavour of TNG.

One obvious problem with these Ancient Astronaut gods in Star Trek is: why are they fixated on humanity, when there are any number of primitive humanoid civilizations scattered across the galaxy who would happily worship them and do orgies as needed. Why weren't they good enough for Apollo and company? Being a bit too picky if you ask me.

My problem with crazy gods episodes is that our heroes always assume that they're morally and intellectually superior than the super powerful immortal being they encounter. Right now we see how it's popular to condem the moral norms of 10 years ago, imagine a society that's existed for millions of years and then thinking they had a lot to learn from you and that there is nothing to learn from them. It's a supreme arrogance which is what the federation is known for.

I disagree they assume, rather they listen to the beings argument for a bit and decide they are unconvincing, sometimes they seem to leave open the view that there is more to discuss and more to learn. It is usually that circumstance like the aliens being hostile or something that cuts off that sort of research.

What is the alternative they could not listen to arguments? In which case they would indeed be ignoring any insight the civilizations.

Listening to the dictates of the oldest civilization you happen to come across (what you seem to be suggesting), is not a coherent directive unless the oldest civilization you come across this week has that directive, if it does not have that directive then in order to truly respect that civilization you should not adopt that directive and so on.

More seriously the flaw in your premise is that a million year old civilization may have come to a view by dint of a million years of experience, analysis and careful consideration, or they may have been really stubborn and believed the same thing for a million years out of bloody mindedness. Hence why you ask for arguments, if they basically admit the position they take is not due to any superior insight but just one they have bull headly adopted there is certainly no reason to believe it.

In this case I would argue they totally absorbed and followed the philosophy of these guys, which was apparently you should obey people who have physical power of you (hence him smiting Scotty, Kirk and so on all the time). They gained physical power over Apollo therefore Apollo should have obeyed them by the logic of his own philosophy. Not to overpower Apollo and subjugate him to their will when they had the power would have been a rejection of his philosophy.

Exactly. Is that not exactly the Goa'uld?

[Nealithi]

Come on guys. Chuck asked for thirty pages. We need to argue more.

Personally I felt they had written a few interesting threads. Like the other gods letting go and dissipating. To the part where Apollo left some progeny behind. It would have been interesting for the grandchild of Apollo to meet a Q for example.

[Darth Wedgius]

Here we have a group of humans and one alien taking out another false god. What do you mean this isn't SG-1?

And, launching myself feet-first into the woodchipper... The "one god" raised my eyebrows but didn't really bother me. Christianity has been around for a long time, and they left things vague enough that monotheism could have gone through any number of changes by Kirk's time. Everyone could worship Microsoft Bob, peace be upon his prophet Clippy.

It was actually the human-centric speech Kirk gave Palamas always bothered me a little...

We're the same. We share the same history, the same heritage, the same lives. We're tied together beyond any untying. Man or woman, it makes no difference. We're human. We couldn't escape from each other even if we wanted to. That's how you do it, Lieutenant. By remembering who and what you are. A bit of flesh and blood afloat in a universe without end. The only thing that's truly yours is the rest of humanity. That's where our duty lies.

That suggests more duty to Khan than Sarek. If a human mugger starts beating up an Andorian grandmother to steal her purse, whom does Kirk space-karate-chop? I won't go into parallels used by unsavory people through time to say your loyalty is to "your own kind" as unnecessarily inflammatory.

And maybe I'm being too literal. Again.