VOY - Collective

[GreyICE]

Funny thing is, War Games and War Drums were my introduction to Stephanie Brown, and I fell in love with the character. It was as if an Archie comics character, going over her romances with another superhero, while also being part of the Batman family. I loved seeing that aspect.

Did not enjoy seeing her die, but she was awesome to see as part of the Batman family.

I mean could I really hate a storyline if I didn't love the character? The most hate I can work up for when they kill some 2D cardboard cutout that existed to die is a solid eye roll. But I really loved Stephanie's dynamic, all the way through. The way she tried to learn as Spoiler, her mistakes, how goddamn earnest she was. Her flashes of anger, her desperate need to prove herself. It's something Batman hadn't had in a long time - someone with something to prove, as a hero (not Huntress, Huntress just exists so Batman can roll his eyes and say "Huntress never learns" - look, don't get me started on Huntress, she's just a 2D cutout masquerading as a character). I really liked Stephanie, and in case you missed it I LOVED Cassandra Cain. The entire Batman universe, the whole thing, has produced maybe a dozen really original, amazing, truly great story arcs in its entire history, and I count that among the best of the best.

You're reminding me of the good parts. You know, had they made her really part of the Bat family - hang her suit in the cave, show that Batman regretted what he had done and what he became, have him reach out to people like Huntress that he pushed away, had Oracle smack him with a stick to the nuts (or ten), really changed things up, I might have been okay with it. Have her death something that haunted Batman worse than Jason Todd's. Jason Todd was an angry, violent teenager driven by violence in his path who ran into a murderous clown playing an insane game. Stephanie Brown died because Batman was a fucking asshole and all she ever wanted was his approval. He as good as killed her himself. Have him really do some fucking soul searching and redefine himself. Have everyone redefine their relationship with Batman - he's not necessarily a figure of near worship anymore, he's a damaged man who lashes out and drives people away because he can't accept anything other than complete subservience, accept something he can't control into his life. You know, what they showed us in War Games.

Instead, business as usual, no memorial. Good god. No, I don't hate the writer of War Games. I hate the editor who said how it would play out and what would happen afterwards (Tim Drake goes back to being Robin, status quo is restored).

I admit, you are 100% right, the hatred of Cassandra Cain was huge as was Stephanie Brown. Also, long-standing.

Both these events were nasty attempts to make people hate the characters.

1. The retcon of Cassandra Cain has been done a couple of times including making her a member of the League of Shadows who could talk and trying to make her a Robin villain that was "my sexy nemesis" and fitting every Dragon Lady stereotype.

2. Making Stephanie Brown the dumbest Robin who started the WAR GAMES massacre so that Batman could bring back Tim as the "Real" Robin and show he only made her Robin to make Tim jealous. Which...who the fuck even comes up with that.

Really, this was all BEFORE the embargo that was, "Just pretend they don't exist."

And I'm glad that didn't work either.

Oh right. Batman just did it so he could show her boyfriend Tim Drake how Tim was better than Stephanie in every possible way. Wow. I just felt the magma level in my soul rise slightly as I have to recall this horrible fact.

You know what? Tim Drake should have looked at Batman and spit in his eye. He should have said "You fucking psychopath, you got her killed to show me I'm better? Of course I'm better! You trained me to be better. All you did was treat her like you treated me, rather than try to understand her and train her the way she needed to be trained. So you gave her hope then crushed her dreams when you knew she'd do ANYTHING to redeem the horrors her dad wrought, and then you're surprised she died chasing redemption. Maybe I was a better Robin. But both of us were better heroes than you'll ever be. Go hang up that cowl, because now I'm judging you. And you haven't earned the right to wear that."

But no, Batman is always right, because DC's editorial board is fucking 14 and thinks memes are actual character ideas. Quick, lets embargo the fact she ever existed rather than see Batman struggle with the guilt of knowing he did the closest thing he's ever done to breaking his no kill rule and he did it with a teenager hero who just wanted to make the world a better place, not a murderous psychopathic clown whose life he's saved literally about a dozen times, because letting Joker die - even to his own insane scheme - is no different than killing him, but letting Stephanie die to Batman's insane scheme is a good object lesson for young Tim Drake.

[cdrood]

As far as them creating new kids to be Borg, I don't know. I think it possible they just assimilated a baby. The other kids were supposed to still be in maturation chambers of their own, they just got released by the malfunctions.

I imagine it's both like what Chuck said, I'm sure the Borg assimilate babies and put them in a Maturation chamber to speed them up so they can serve the Collective, but I can see them just growning new Drones from scratch to make up the numbers.

The whole "assimilate people" thing was actually a late addition. In their debut episode, it was specifically stated they only were interested in technology. Until Locutus, all Starfleet knew was that they were interested in was technology. Presumably, even Guinan didn't know about it and the Borg destroyed most of her race.

[cdrood]

I really don't see the big deal about fridging.

In and of itself really nothing, it the fact that female characters keep getting screw over for male characters arc with no plans for what happen to them is.

I just feel like its use as well as mary sue as innate pejoratives is stretching.

Fridging was extremely common in comic books for quite a while. I don't need to tell you that many comics are sexist and horribly derivative (you have eyeballs, so that's old news) but fridging was an extremely lazy thing they were doing. It was a combination of two things: comic book writers copy shamelessly, and comic book writers are frequently utterly incapable of writing women.

In this case, they copied the Death of Gwen Stacy. A pivotal moment in Peter's life, it was an enormous change for the comic. Gwen Stacy was an extremely well-developed character who was Peter's canonical love interest the way Lois Lane was to Superman. She was frequently getting kidnapped, and it made logical sense that her, being kidnapped by dangerous supervillains, might die. It also refreshed Peter's motivation. Uncle Ben had been slipping in relevance - he had died decades ago, the readers didn't have a strong connection to him (it was "hi Ben, bye Ben"), he had just gotten his powers. Gwen Stacy was a fresh death, and wracked Peter with guilt - if he had been faster, could he have saved the love of his life? It was an impactful and gut wrenching storyline.

However, in the hands of idiots, lets just say that that that was... less good. The term came from an stupid example where a Green Lantern (IIRC) was criticized as having "no character" so the comic writer introduced a girlfriend, only for her to be chopped up four issues later and stuck in the fridge (which gave him "character"). This was far from the only incident, but in that case it immediately struck a nerve because of the internet. Readers had predicted her death since she was introduced, and being proven so boringly, predictably right, there was a lot of online throwing of rotten fruit at the writer.

If there were two women on a team (certainly if there were three) you knew who would die to give the team angst and emotion. Girlfriends existed to get shot. Women in costumes existed to die for men. It was truly a piece of shit case of horrid writing.

Not every case of a woman dying is fridging, far, far from it. The trope refers to introducing a girlfriend/love interest/etc. who exists simply to die at some point in the second act to give the male character motivation. Think "John Wick's dog" but with women. Exists far outside comics by the way, witness Quantum of Solace (truly one of the worst Bond movies in many ways).

To clarify. This was a brand new Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner. He literally only existed on the last page of the issue before the girlfriend was introduced. They actually did a good job of making her interesting in such a short time. She adapted to the situation of his getting the ring much better than he did and started helping him get a practice regimen going.

[cdrood]

I disagree that Supergirl was a victim of "fridging". The cover certainly makes it seem that way, but her actual death was probably the character's most awesome moment. She was the focus. It was Kara vs. The Antimonitor for the fate of the multiverse and she just kept punching and punching. Like with Barry Allen, it was a hero giving everything to save lives.

With Barbara, it was a case, but fortunately John Ostrander refused to let that stand and she actually became more prominent in-universe than she'd ever been as Batgirl. They even took the characters history and built a new role she could fill. They also made sure to continue training her body so she could defend herself. A lot of fans were actually disappointed they gave her a magical cure and returned her to the Batgirl role.

[CharlesPhipps]

To clarify. This was a brand new Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner. He literally only existed on the last page of the issue before the girlfriend was introduced. They actually did a good job of making her interesting in such a short time. She adapted to the situation of his getting the ring much better than he did and started helping him get a practice regimen going.

Gail Simone said, paraphrased, "Alex Dewitt is a fascinating character. Because 20 years later, people remember her name not just because she was the infamous woman in a refrigerator. She was a likable character with a lot of chemistry w/ the barely established Kyle Rayner and an instant hit with readers. So, of course, having struck gold after failing with literally hundreds of other attempts at making a successful supporting character--they kill her in a horrifying fashion."

[GreyICE]

To clarify. This was a brand new Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner. He literally only existed on the last page of the issue before the girlfriend was introduced. They actually did a good job of making her interesting in such a short time. She adapted to the situation of his getting the ring much better than he did and started helping him get a practice regimen going.

Gail Simone said, paraphrased, "Alex Dewitt is a fascinating character. Because 20 years later, people remember her name not just because she was the infamous woman in a refrigerator. She was a likable character with a lot of chemistry w/ the barely established Kyle Rayner and an instant hit with readers. So, of course, having struck gold after failing with literally hundreds of other attempts at making a successful supporting character--they kill her in a horrifying fashion."

Okay, I like Gail Simone well enough, but she lives inside the asylum, and some things are hard to see (and harder to say) as a resident. And that is simple. Alex Dewitt had no character. She was simply a series of "character moments" executed in order, before she was killed. What made her compelling in any way was two things. The first is that all of the character moments were executed quickly. They were not dragged out long enough for the void behind them to get revealed. The second is that fans are rabidly hungry for a decent woman in comics, and thought something else might be coming once we got past all the usual tropes. Instead they killed her, because that's all she was, the bag of tropes.

As for the tropes, here they are in rough order:

The Girl has a career that shows she is independent, conscientious, and caring, but not one that requires management, leadership, serious projects, or long hours. Veterinarian (preferably if the clinic is mysteriously staffed by just the vet so the hero can crash there). EMT (never firefighter). Reporter. Wildlife Ranger. Owns a horse farm. You know, that sort of thing.

The Girl is Strong and Spunky, and Stands Up for Herself. When the hero tells her his identity she is angry but supportive, showing she thinks for herself, but chooses to Stand by her Man.

She might dress in virtually nothing - this is comics - but she's not a Slut. We will learn this at some point, because of course. She will probably be contrasted with some other Slut, to show she is a Madonna, but sometimes the writer is just lazy and writes it out in painful dialogue. She is virtuous and pure, and conflicted about sex, but loves our hero deeply.

She cares about her job and shows that it is important to her and she is not just running after her man. Presumably about half an issue before she runs after her man.

She has a Quirky Personality Trait that is endearing but that she is embarrassed about. This is either something fairly normal (sometimes) or something only aliens from planet X would think is normal (aka comic book writers). No distinction will be made between these, because there's no logic or reasoning behind this trait, it's just something they're supposed to have, box checked off.

Then we get a romantic scene - something nice and sappy, visiting a friend's wedding or something, we get the inevitable fight over being a hero and fight over the hero's identity, we get the "two panels of her doing her job" or "mentioning a client to the hero" type shit.


These aren't a character. These are a collection of tropes and scenes. They're less work than I'd put into an NPC I expected to be a minor but recurring character, and this is where 90% of girlfriends in comics fall in to. These scenes are so old hat I have a set number I'll hit before I put the title down and wait for it to switch writers. Is Alex any more than some subset of the above? I'm not going to locate, purchase, and read some decade old travesty starring the worst Green Lantern when I already hate every Green Lantern title I've read no matter who recommended it to me, but I'm pretty sure yes, yes she is.

[CharlesPhipps]

Eh, every character is a collection of tropes.

What makes them live is if you believe in them.

[GreyICE]

Eh, every character is a collection of tropes.

What makes them live is if you believe in them.

If you write like that you're a hack. Fuck, if you're a DM and you make NPCs like that you're a hack. This is hackery.

A character is like a person - a collection of life experiences and personality traits. These shape them, guide them, and define them. Writers often talk about their characters surprising them. What they mean is they put the character in a situation and they ask "what would they do?" And the answer is something like "Call the cops" or "say 'fuck it, it's not worth it', and leave". And a defined character can do that, because they've got motivations, desires, and beliefs. So a character with their own business and own life might look at an insane situation and go "this is whack. I've got my own stuff" and just leave it, because they have built a life for themselves. Maybe they don't, they don't have to, but they can get involved for good reasons too. Good writers have characters who surprise them, and I can always tell writers who never experience that.

A collection of tropes and stock scenes is just that. It's not a character, it's a prop you wheel from scene to scene to belch out dialogue on command. "Why does she do X?" "She's the virtuous girlfriend." "Why does she tell him her fears and concerns?" "It's the romantic conversation alone scene." "It's the funny shopkeeper with the accent." "It's the crazy security guard who thinks he's Rambo." Good characters have real lives and are believable. They might match a trope, but only because the trope is descriptive of a type, and it's no more "everything about them" than "software engineer" or "research scientist".

The longer that sort of hackery lasts the more it becomes obvious that there's no consistent characters, just cardboard props on strings being moved from scene to scene by the river called "plot". I know DC writers. Alex's best trait was she died early enough no one got a chance to see that.

[CharlesPhipps]

Eh, every character is a collection of tropes.

What makes them live is if you believe in them.

If you write like that you're a hack. Fuck, if you're a DM and you make NPCs like that you're a hack. This is hackery.

A character is like a person - a collection of life experiences and personality traits. These shape them, guide them, and define them. Writers often talk about their characters surprising them. What they mean is they put the character in a situation and they ask "what would they do?" And the answer is something like "Call the cops" or "say 'fuck it, it's not worth it', and leave". And a defined character can do that, because they've got motivations, desires, and beliefs. So a character with their own business and own life might look at an insane situation and go "this is whack. I've got my own stuff" and just leave it, because they have built a life for themselves. Maybe they don't, they don't have to, but they can get involved for good reasons too. Good writers have characters who surprise them, and I can always tell writers who never experience that.

A collection of tropes and stock scenes is just that. It's not a character, it's a prop you wheel from scene to scene to belch out dialogue on command. "Why does she do X?" "She's the virtuous girlfriend." "Why does she tell him her fears and concerns?" "It's the romantic conversation alone scene." "It's the funny shopkeeper with the accent." "It's the crazy security guard who thinks he's Rambo." Good characters have real lives and are believable. They might match a trope, but only because the trope is descriptive of a type, and it's no more "everything about them" than "software engineer" or "research scientist".

The longer that sort of hackery lasts the more it becomes obvious that there's no consistent characters, just cardboard props on strings being moved from scene to scene by the river called "plot". I know DC writers. Alex's best trait was she died early enough no one got a chance to see that.

Frankly, writing like a person is writing tropes. But then again, I believe that the personality and "life" of a character is brought about by the author or actor. You can give characters qualities but how they act requires a conscious puppeteer.

[Freeverse]

Okay, I like Gail Simone well enough, but she lives inside the asylum, and some things are hard to see (and harder to say) as a resident. And that is simple. Alex Dewitt had no character. She was simply a series of "character moments" executed in order, before she was killed. What made her compelling in any way was two things. The first is that all of the character moments were executed quickly. They were not dragged out long enough for the void behind them to get revealed. The second is that fans are rabidly hungry for a decent woman in comics, and thought something else might be coming once we got past all the usual tropes. Instead they killed her, because that's all she was, the bag of tropes.

You know, I've never read much green lantern, and actually I've never heard anyone mention Alex Dewitt by name, so I thought it was a bit odd that someone would say she's often remembered for her strong characterization, but I figured that might be more of a thing among GL fans. Maybe it's-

Is Alex any more than some subset of the above? I'm not going to locate, purchase, and read some decade old travesty starring the worst Green Lantern when I already hate every Green Lantern title I've read no matter who recommended it to me, but I'm pretty sure yes, yes she is.

wait what

You haven't read it? um. look. I get the point you were trying to make.... maybe make it about a character in a story you've read, though?

You're absolutely right that there's a problem in superhero comics when it comes to writing supporting characters, especially when they're women. and usually when a character is unceremoniously killed off shortly after being introduced, the writer hasn't put in the work to make them fully fleshed out in the short time they had. But like... you seemed to indicate up at the top that you were familiar with this character in particular, and it makes the whole post seem like it's coming from someone who has read the issue in question.

I don't think you're responsible for tracking down a copy, even if you have read it in the past and are going off an old memory, but I do think establishing whether you've read it or not before going into a critique is important for intellectual honesty.

Also, the worst Green Lantern? I thought Hal Jordan was Parallax when this happened

Side note:

Wildlife Ranger.

This made me laugh, I know it's just an example of a job that's serious, but doesn't often give the character much authority... but I just can't help but thinking "Oh, yeah, that tired old trope of wildlife ranger girlfriends in comic books. When are writers going to realize how cliche it is for the superhero's girlfriend to be a wildlife ranger? I'm just sick of all these wildlife rangers in comics!"

For real, this isn't me trying to say you're wrong in any way, I just can't think of a single comic book character who's a wildlife ranger and it got my wires crossed. Thank you for this gift.