Star Trek: Lower Decks

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Mabus
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Post by Mabus »

J!! wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:32 pm She also spent an entire season atoning for it.

Really, it seems like you just don't like flawed characters. Kinda funny how you only seem to care when those characters are black women though.
Well yeah, I have a problem with it, since so far in NuTrek, it's only the black women main characters that have been characterized that way (which I've mentioned in my first post, thanks you for not mentioning that, otherwise I would have thought something else). Side or recurring characters, like Owosekun (had to search her name on memory-alpha since I won't memorize everyone), Gabrielle Burnham, Bryce, barely have any characterization, they're probably the descendants of Travis Maywether in term of characterization. Culber has some characterization, except he is better know for dying and getting brought back than anything else he ever did.
What other characters have acted unlikeable? That McCoy-lite doctor from the asteroid, what was her name, Jean Reno, Jett Reno, whatever? She is rough and has sass, but at least she's not completely unlikeable. She's cliche and gets annoying sometimes, but didn't do anything that stupid to deserve enough "hate". Po? I guess you could make a case for her annoying personality, but then again she's royalty, so I guess she wasn't meant to be "normie" or to be liked. Cornwell? She's more of a bureaucrat, like all the Starfleet admirals before, so she doesn't have that much of a distinct personality. DIS characters range between unlikeable, shallow and forgettable, with only a handful of exceptions.
Also, remind me again, how did Burnham atoned for the mutiny? By bringing back the evil version of her dead captain who is nothing like her? By becoming a freakin' time traveling Iron Angel or whatever it was called? By going 1000 years into the future and reforming the Federation?

Here's the thing. In any character arc, the character must grow or change, or at least feel differently at the end of the arc, but based on how the actions affected said character. Since that's how you can see that said character has responded to what he experienced. Otherwise you get the impression that they learn nothing, they experience nothing and they don't react to the world.
How have any NuTrek characters changed in any significant way? The only one I can think of is Ash Tyler, in some ways.
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Post by Dman »

Can't hate a series that finally recognized the Most Important Man in Starfleet's History...

Chief Miles O'Brien!
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Post by GreyICE »

Mabus wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:19 pmWas I not clear what I meant? Their common trait is that they're unlikeable and unpleasant. Be it "I'm gonna start a mutiny because I know better"/"but what about me" (Burnham), breaking apart your family due to your conspiracy obsession and turning into a drug addict (Raffi), having constant anger issues over everything (Carol) or being a self-entitled jackass with mommy issues who, on the first appearance, gets drunk and (near-fatally) assaults another ensign, then on further appearances does nothing but belittle everybody around her and even think that she's somewhat more qualified than the XO in fight because, oh no, she has scars (Mariner).
That's my "the same sort of character": unpleasant, self-entitled, narcissistic and unlikeable. Oh and they rarely suffer actual consequences of their bad actions, they always get saved by the plot, or at least when some karma happens, it just gets forgotten by the next episode or has no effect on the character/story.
Really? I found Raffi quite likeable and sympathetic. She had the best of intentions with Picard in flashbacks, she was just trying to see her family, and her interactions with non-Picard people were great in the present day. I also find myself enjoying Mariner, but that might be because I find her entire shtick hilarious. Carol we'll need to see more of, of course, but I found myself happy she'd held command to the same standards as the rest of the crew. It was very Starfleet. And being angry at Mariner doesn't seem to me to disqualify someone from likability, most people seem to be angry with Mariner most of the time.

I agree Burnham is unlikable to me, but even in this thread you have someone disagreeing and finding her more sympathetic. And I have trouble untangling how I feel about the actress (excellent actress), the character (meh), and the script (hahaha stop fucking writing garbage you hacks) for most episodes. I find her more likeable in the episodes I consider good, like the Mudd one.

So I'd say that's some REALLY subjective character traits. Raffi is pleasant to non-Picard people, Carol seems fairly nice to everyone who isn't Mariner (she even gave Boimler a plaque), Mariner is half loved, half hated, in universe.

They are flawed characters, yes. Well except Burnham, whose flaws always seem to be informed ones. Fucking writers on Discovery...
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

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I hate it when characters spend most of the time just hating the main character. Not like that's all she does or is, but it can just drag.
..What mirror universe?
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Mabus
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

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Yeah, it gets irritating after a while.
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

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BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:03 pm I hate it when characters spend most of the time just hating the main character. Not like that's all she does or is, but it can just drag.
That's fair, I'm glad that it didn't last in Season 1 of Discovery and even then it wasn't that bad for me, and while I've only seen the first episode of Lower Decks I'm interested in seeing the conflict between Ensign Mariner and Captain Freeman because of the Mother/Daughter relationship.

But personally the worst examples of this that I hate is in Anime, Evangelion and Persona 5 immediately comes to mind.
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Mabus
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

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Episode 4 is out. Just as meh as the previous one, except that now something completely unexpected has to happen to ruin the build-up plot. And Tendi is now another character that's insufferable.

Also irrelevant news (I mean it's for Canada):
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/08/26/star-trek-lower-decks-canadian-viewership-plummets-after-premiere-episode/
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Post by GreyICE »

Link8909 wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:19 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:03 pm I hate it when characters spend most of the time just hating the main character. Not like that's all she does or is, but it can just drag.
That's fair, I'm glad that it didn't last in Season 1 of Discovery and even then it wasn't that bad for me, and while I've only seen the first episode of Lower Decks I'm interested in seeing the conflict between Ensign Mariner and Captain Freeman because of the Mother/Daughter relationship.

But personally the worst examples of this that I hate is in Anime, Evangelion and Persona 5 immediately comes to mind.
I'd put the single biggest example of this I've ever seen as the TV show "House". I'm fairly certain that there was one person on the entire show who liked House (his colleague Wilson) and even then half the time that guy found House insufferable too.

To be fair, Hugh Laurie really did a great job playing a character who realistically limped around with a cane and still managed to make you dislike him within a minute of him opening his mouth. Most characters with some sort of visible disability have to really work to overcome the initial good impression they make by being someone with that disability and clearly struggling, but Hugh Laurie was able to bypass that the fastest I've ever seen someone do it (without giving a Nazi salute or something).

Fortunately Lower Decks seems to know its characters are assholes, while House seemed entirely convinced that I was supposed to be rooting for this misanthropic walking violation of the HIPAA act, and entirely in his corner even though in-universe everyone hated him and I had no problems seeing why.
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Post by Dman »

First scene of the episode is the first time I've really disliked Mariner. There’s being the “maverick who has seen and done it all, and doesn’t follow the rules” and there’s just being an asshole. The ship and the terraforming fluid was an amazing discovery, and given the fact she read the mission brief and cooked up a way to deal with the fluid makes it clear the yawning was just her being a dick to her mom.

I love the way Freeman dealt with her, it was evil genius. But I also note that Mariner was perfectly competent in every single job assigned to her. And not only competent but she never abandoned her duties or intentionally fail to get demoted.
Wonder if she plans on staying an Ensign forever? Because she can clearly do better. (wonder if she found out the Telorite captain proved her “all senior staff are glory hounds” mentality right again)

Tendi’s plot was fun, all the way to the punchline and the very Pratchett ending of leaving only the shoes behind.

Rutheford continues to be great, competent and always finding the dun in his work. He really needs more screentime and definitely a promotion.

The next episode worries me though. I fucking hate the “haha, this guy could never get a girfriend” plots. Either Mariner is proven right and there’s something nefarious going on or Mariner’s actions destroy Boimler’s (apparently) good relationship with this girl.

I can just see the ending “Cheer up Boimler, at least you still have us!”.

Ugh. I really hope they prove me wrong.
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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks

Post by CharlesPhipps »

I am willing to bet some latinum that the plot will be:

* Mariner refuses to believe Boilmer has a girlfriend
* Horribly embarrasses her and almost ruins the relationship
* Apologies and tries to make amends.
* Boimler and she break up for entirely unrelated reasons.

Anyone want to take this bet?

Not you, Quark!
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