Star Wars, Highly Illiogical Captain

[Fixer]

It would be more like the tranquil in Dragon Age. In hylomorphic terms they would be (crude) matter but not form. They would have no "force" motivating them to do anything, so they would probably starve to death.

And Nathema is still legends canon. SWTOR is all over the place on this, the newer expansions treat balance as neutral like Bendu, which contradicts Lucas, while there's a master on Tython talking about balance being a Jedi thing and the ending of SoR is pretty close to Lucas' view with balance being achieved by light Revan willingly merging with dark Revan who doesn't want anything to do with light Revan.

True, but Kreia is also Legends so it still fits within that particular continuity.

There's nothing that suggests force is required to motivate individuals or creatures. Life fosters and nourishes it, and in return in guides life.

Outside of Nathema you also have the example of Ysalimiri on Wayland which projected a force empty bubble around themselves and enough of them blanketed the entire planet with a force absent aura. The population of Wayland survived just fine without contact with the force, though obviously Wayland is a much less severe case than Nathema.

On Wayland the force was merely severed or repulsed. On Nathema it was cold and dead.

Ysalamiri may exist in current cannon, since Thrawn had sculptures of them in his collection.

[GandALF]

True, but Kreia is also Legends so it still fits within that particular continuity.

But that's the problem, she wants to end the Force because it manipulates events to achieve balance, but there are contradictory definitions of balance:

1. If balance is neutral and requires a 1:1 ratio of Jedi to Sith, then she's ending a strange lovecraftian thing that brings about constant war.

2. If its the Lucas version in which balance is achieved when the light side renders the dark side inert after the Sith inflame it, then she essentially wants to stop the karmic justice that ensures the good guys always win. Which would make more sense considering she's a Sith.

[Madner Kami]

She is not a Sith.

[Fixer]

Kreia is Darth Traya. She is most definitely Sith. One of her defining traits is the pursuit of individual freedom which is the ultimate goal of the Sith code.

True, but Kreia is also Legends so it still fits within that particular continuity.

But that's the problem, she wants to end the Force because it manipulates events to achieve balance, but there are contradictory definitions of balance:

1. If balance is neutral and requires a 1:1 ratio of Jedi to Sith, then she's ending a strange lovecraftian thing that brings about constant war.

2. If its the Lucas version in which balance is achieved when the light side renders the dark side inert after the Sith inflame it, then she essentially wants to stop the karmic justice that ensures the good guys always win. Which would make more sense considering she's a Sith.

The trouble with the whole Phantom Menace "Prophecy" nonsense. Balance was never defined inside the movies, and neither was the actual prophecy. There was a vague thing that's apparently super important to the plot and Jedi's motivations but we're not told about it and you have to research outside of the trilogy to see what's going on.

Kreia's belief was that the force used sentients as pawns, endlessly manipulating force sensitive individuals into conflicts so that no side would every remain more powerful than the other. She resented the fact that there was something controlling her life.

SWTOR's Force lore from KotFE chapter 12 suggested that the Force was more complex and delved into the shades between Dark and Light, showing that neither philosophy was entirely correct or false.

“The Force is a paradox, it empowers and imprisons. It destroys and unites. It binds the galaxy together, and tears people apart. It has a will… but needs a commander.” - Darth Marr.

[Madner Kami]

Kreia is Darth Traya. She is most definitely Sith. One of her defining traits is the pursuit of individual freedom which is the ultimate goal of the Sith code.

So everyone who is not a communist, monarchist or totalitarian is a Sith? Come on, really? On the other hand, it would be oddly fitting, as it would leave the Jedi as a totalitarian elitist bunch of know-it-alls with a stick up their arse that is so long, that they can hoist a flag upon it. Seriously. Kreia was Darth Traya. She stopped being Darth Traya as she recognized that Sith are just as rotten in their core as the Jedi are. In the end, she retakes the mantle of Darth Traya to teach you a final lesson, but she is most definitly not a Sith anymore, by the point in time we meet her in the game. In fact, she argues against the Sith Code and Sith-like behaviour just as much as she argues against the Jedi Code.

“The Force is a paradox, it empowers and imprisons. It destroys and unites. It binds the galaxy together, and tears people apart. It has a will… but needs a commander.” - Darth Marr.

That might be the best characterization of the Force yet.

[Fixer]

Kreia is Darth Traya. She is most definitely Sith. One of her defining traits is the pursuit of individual freedom which is the ultimate goal of the Sith code.

So everyone who is not a communist, monarchist or totalitarian is a Sith? Come on, really? On the other hand, it would be oddly fitting, as it would leave the Jedi as a totalitarian elitist bunch of know-it-alls with a stick up their arse that is so long, that they can hoist a flag upon it. Seriously. Kreia was Darth Traya. She stopped being Darth Traya as she recognized that Sith are just as rotten in their core as the Jedi are. In the end, she retakes the mantle of Darth Traya to teach you a final lesson, but she is most definitly not a Sith anymore, by the point in time we meet her in the game. In fact, she argues against the Sith Code and Sith-like behaviour just as much as she argues against the Jedi Code.

This is more of an issue with the game being incomplete and rushed. Despite her grey status throughout the story Kreia once again takes up the mantle of Darth Traya after wiping out the remains of the Jedi council and discovering the secret of why Meetra Surik was exiled.

It was a sith, Darth Traya , who you finally face in the end. She channelled her hatred of the force itself as her strength.

Originally if you had shifted her alignment to the light, Atris would have taken up the mantle of Darth Traya and fought you instead.

[GandALF]

The trouble with the whole Phantom Menace "Prophecy" nonsense. Balance was never defined inside the movies, and neither was the actual prophecy. There was a vague thing that's apparently super important to the plot and Jedi's motivations but we're not told about it and you have to research outside of the trilogy to see what's going on.

Kreia's belief was that the force used sentients as pawns, endlessly manipulating force sensitive individuals into conflicts so that no side would every remain more powerful than the other. She resented the fact that there was something controlling her life.

SWTOR's Force lore from KotFE chapter 12 suggested that the Force was more complex and delved into the shades between Dark and Light, showing that neither philosophy was entirely correct or false.

“The Force is a paradox, it empowers and imprisons. It destroys and unites. It binds the galaxy together, and tears people apart. It has a will… but needs a commander.” - Darth Marr.

I think SWTOR's devs can't afford making two storylines anymore so they're trying to get away from the dualism and can do so since they're not part of continuity anymore.

The defence of the Kreia's belief that Force is bad and controls people is that Force engineered the Clone Wars, made Anakin fall and willed all that violence in order to achieve balance is contradicted by TCW series in which it is stated the Clone Wars and the machinations of the Sith are causing the imbalance. Obi-Wan's words to Anakin while he was getting crispy on the grill also indicate that his free choice to commit injustices have gone against creating balance. Now TCW is a Lucas project so it has the strongest claim on being the correct view, clunky dialogue be damned.

Kotor II actually supports the Lucas view in a lot of ways. The Malachor V battle is referred to as a wound in the Force in the same way the Clone Wars are referred to as an imbalance in the Force. if the Force is control of everyone why would it wound itself? Kreia herself states:

The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from

It's like poetry, it rhymes.

So Kreia is either wrong. Or more likely insane and/or malevolent like her forebear Ravel the night hag.

[Madner Kami]

This is more of an issue with the game being incomplete and rushed. Despite her grey status throughout the story Kreia once again takes up the mantle of Darth Traya after wiping out the remains of the Jedi council and discovering the secret of why Meetra Surik was exiled.

It was a sith, Darth Traya , who you finally face in the end. She channelled her hatred of the force itself as her strength.

Originally if you had shifted her alignment to the light, Atris would have taken up the mantle of Darth Traya and fought you instead.

She takes the mantle of Darth Traya again, but she is not Sith. Her very teachings are antithetical to the Sith-teachings. Remember the Sith Code established by KotoR I?

Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion I gain Strength.
Through Strength I gain Power.
Through Power I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.

Her entire point, the very core of her teaching, her entire motivation in helping you is, that the Force does not free anyone, it enslaves people. A core moment in the game, in case you do a Dark Side run of the game, is the "Lesson of Strength". She teaches you, that turning away from power, is true power. She admires the Exile's ability to turn away from the Force and power and she says as much, several times during the game:

During one of the many conversations, she offers you an option to draw strength from Hanharr's beastiality and when the Exile chooses to not rely on that power she says this:
Ah... and that is the choice of Malachor V, at last. You've made a strange choice, a unique choice. Very well, I accept it. And know that that is the true lesson of strength, to turn away from strength that is not your own.

And even in the finale after she took the mantle of Traya again:

Because you are a Jedi who turned from the force and survived and became stronger for it. In you, I see the potential to see the Force to die, to turn away from it's will and that is what pleases me. You are beautiful to me, Exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptyness in which it's will might be denied. [...] But no Jedi, ever, made the choice you did. To sever ties (to the Force) so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force. And that is why I choose you. You are not a Jedi, you are not Sith, not truely and it is for that, that I love you.

She recognizes what the Sith are, weak-willed people who make themselves slaves to the Force in order to achieve power. She despises that and it is her entire point that succumbing to the Force in such a way is not strength, it's weakness. It's not freedom, it's enslavement to the Force, it is what keeps the Wheel of the "Balanced" Force turning and turning. She wants that to stop.

[GandALF]

She recognizes what the Sith are, weak-willed people who make themselves slaves to the Force in order to achieve power. She despises that and it is her entire point that succumbing to the Force in such a way is not strength, it's weakness. It's not freedom, it's enslavement to the Force, it is what keeps the Wheel of the "Balanced" Force turning and turning. She wants that to stop.

The Sith are against balance and are what causes imbalance. The Jedi aren't Vulcans, they still feel all their selfish emotions but their light side keeps them in check. The Sith regard their light side as a weakness that gets in the way of what they want i.e. happiness which the dark side only provides in the short term. Again in "Revenge" Maul mocks Obi-Wan for trying to maintain his balance so he's not all that different from Kreia.

[Madner Kami]

Sith are caused by the denial of humanity within the Jedi Code. If "balance" can only be achieved by the absence of emotions, then conflict is pre-programmed. This kind of "Balance" is a false promise as can be clearly seen by all the Jedi constantly failing to the Dark Side. The entire Order is in a constant process of repeated failure, because they are unable to acknowledge basic human needs and thus are incapable of dealing with their very own humanity. As long as that doesn't change, there will always be people exploding out of the confines they are forced into. Thus Sith are naturally "against balance", but they do not cause imbalance, they are the result of the real imbalance and "all" they do is, upset an unnatural order that can not, by it's very definiton, be in balance or equilibrium, as it will always be a forced state of things.