Las Vegas shooting

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Fuzzy Necromancer
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

LittleRaven wrote:
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:You want a Well Regulated Militia? We got one. It's called the Army, Navy, Airforce, and Marines.
I'm not the one you have to convince here. That would be these fine folks. The good news is that you'll be in good company - many fine legal minds are on your side. The bad news is that so far, they haven't been buying what you're selling. But that could change.
I'm sick and tired of countless innocent lives being treated as acceptable losses for a damn stupid amendment.
Clearly. But that just means you have a goal to shoot for. The Constitution is not scripture. It can be changed. It's not easy to change, but it's not impossible either.
Fine. You're not the one I have to convince. Then stop playing devil's advocate.

How come when we're protecting against brown Muslim terrorists we can suppress just about any sort of civil liberty, but when every day gun killings happen from cranky racist old men to toddlers, suddenly the amendment is absolute and inviolate?
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
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Robovski
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by Robovski »

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:
Every other varblenecking klorbag in this gods-abandoned country has a private Rambo fantasy.

*snippage*

That's why every time I walk into a movie theater I wonder if it will be my last.
1. (last point first but whatever) If that's how you honestly feel walking into a movie theater, save your nerves and wait 6 weeks for the rental release; seeing a movie at release isn't worth your life and the $12.00

2. The ''Private Rambo fantasy'' is kind of what I meant by culture in my first statement; it is not uncommon to hear people with violent fantasies that are supposed to be just that, fantasies. People who go home and picture their boss or THAT supervisor or that neighbor and murdering them again and again in creative/uncreative ways. Sometimes this appears in fiction, sometimes as a fantasy, sometimes as some hero action (like Rambo, like Falling Down), sometimes just as villainy (pirates, gangs, westerns). Americans treat graphic violence as more acceptable than sexual content, or at least rating boards do. Simultaneously, we treat mental health as a non-issue at best, and stress shortens lives through ill health and suicide but we are expected to just suck it up. Combine these two elements with a media that spreads the infamy around and you have someone who can't face going on but ''he'll show them'' and have that last moment getting his revenge on a society that didn't care and will know who he was for a brief few days.
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:
LittleRaven wrote:
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:You want a Well Regulated Militia? We got one. It's called the Army, Navy, Airforce, and Marines.
I'm not the one you have to convince here. That would be these fine folks. The good news is that you'll be in good company - many fine legal minds are on your side. The bad news is that so far, they haven't been buying what you're selling. But that could change.
I'm sick and tired of countless innocent lives being treated as acceptable losses for a damn stupid amendment.
Clearly. But that just means you have a goal to shoot for. The Constitution is not scripture. It can be changed. It's not easy to change, but it's not impossible either.
Fine. You're not the one I have to convince. Then stop playing devil's advocate.

How come when we're protecting against brown Muslim terrorists we can suppress just about any sort of civil liberty, but when every day gun killings happen from cranky racist old men to toddlers, suddenly the amendment is absolute and inviolate?
If Little Raven will forgive me for speaking for them, I suspect the intent was to be pragmatic and point out the very real challenges to making a significant change.

To that end, Buzzfeed actually posted an excellent article with ideas from several experts for practical measures of gun control that work around the Second Amendment and America's general resistance to change on this issue that could save thousands of lives. I know that we don't want to hear about compromise, but digging our feet in and making all or nothing propositions is also not helping. https://www.buzzfeed.com/peteraldhous/h ... .iob9M56rE
Fuzzy Necromancer
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Robovski wrote:
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:
Every other varblenecking klorbag in this gods-abandoned country has a private Rambo fantasy.

*snippage*

That's why every time I walk into a movie theater I wonder if it will be my last.
1. (last point first but whatever) If that's how you honestly feel walking into a movie theater, save your nerves and wait 6 weeks for the rental release; seeing a movie at release isn't worth your life and the $12.00
You obviously under-estimate my level of suicidal urges. :P
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Admiral X
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by Admiral X »

The "well-regulated militia" point:
I've personally never found it difficult to see that the intention here is to say that for a militia to exist (which at the time was all able-bodied men of voting age), people had to be able to keep and bear arms, as in small arms (pistols and long guns), which were in common use by the infantryman of the day. But if that isn't enough for you, there are plenty of writings from the founding fathers that make it much clearer that this was always intended to be an individual right and that it was tied to the right to self-defense, which in there minds could potentially include the American government, hence, "the security of the free state."

Inevitably this leads to the "then people should only be limited to muskets," again, this right is tied into what the average infantryman would be using as arms. And just to show how ludicrous this argument is, would you, for example, argue that free speech should be limited to printed media and standing on the side of the road yelling since that was all that was available at the time?

"The government would never turn tyrannical."
It actually arguably has a few times. The Aliens and Sedition Act, executive Order 9066, and of course that whole slavery thing, and the attempted Native genocide thing. More recently there's the Patriot Act and the actions of the NSA which Snowden released. Plus, I know how some of you feel about Trump. ;) So between stuff like that, all the examples of law enforcement abuse and just a general distrust of government that's been inherited from both sides of my family, I'm not willing to give the government the monopoly on firearms.

"If the government ever turned tyrannical, regular people would never stand a chance."
What, so you want to make sure or something? Hell, some chance is better than no chance. The Vietcong and Iraqi insurgency gave the US military a run for their money, and we're still fighting in Afghanistan. Which, speaking of, the mujahideen gave the Soviet military a run for their money, too. I'd much rather anyone thinking they're going to pull anything in this country have to think about that old saying of "a rifle behind every blade of grass." ;)

So basically this boils down to a liberty vs. security argument, and as has often been attributed to Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Someone indirectly brought up the Patriot Act as an argument in favor of gun control. :roll: Do I really have to explain why it was wrong to trample on civil liberties in the wake of 9/11, or for the "War on Drugs" for that matter? Does it not occur to you that trampling on civil liberties is always wrong?

"But the victims."
Yes, it is tragic that these people lost their lives, and it always is when someone is killed or harmed through the actions of others. Is it any less tragic if someone is killed on a more personal level than through a mass shooting? Is it less tragic if someone is killed through a complete accident where no harm was intended to begin with? You are never going to convince me that curtailing the rights of everyone because of the actions of a few is the right thing to do in any case, and parading dead bodies in front of me in an attempt to appeal to emotion is frankly disgusting, and has quite the opposite effect on me. I tend to be suspicious in general of people who try to appeal to emotion, especially when it comes to suggesting I give up liberty or accept something the government wants to do "for my own good." That shit is how we got the Patriot Act.
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ORCACommander
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by ORCACommander »

I know its not elegant but here I am just going to bullet out my thoughts on the matter

Honestly I am not sure what you would call me on the political spectrum except to say I think both Republican and Democrat agendas are repugnant but libertarians are short sighted and naive in their goals.

the government can never keep you safe.
the police and judicial system are for retribution not prevention
Laws and governance are a social construct that only work when people agree to the terms of the social contract.
the constitution has declared firearms a fundamental right of the populace. (unpopular Even criminals have a right to weapons. rights are never to be denied if rights can be denied its a privilege)
Any firearms regulations should be handled at the state and municipal levels as was intended by dividing us into separate governing districts.
The government has no right to know if I have weapons of any kind.
No legislation should be made based on emotion. If anything it should be made on pragmatic and amoral reasoning.

mental health restrictions on firearms access is unacceptable despite the progress made in the past century and a half its still just guesswork and opinion. and a person's opinion is not enough to revoke a person's rights. Further personal bias can be problem here.

In my mind a better gun control program would be a 3 month training course that teaches you safe handling, maintenance and use of your firearm with a marksmanship exam at the end. and finally a registration for a national draft (defense of the nation only, no overseas or over the boarders deployments).

The Media (new and old) is one of the most irresponsible and reprehensible organizations we currently have. They choose sides, promote agendas, sensationalize anything in pursuit of view count and thus profit from advertisement. They Will never shut or take a break. they must keep talking despite no new information, despite saying the same things days on end Despite knowing nothing taking something to national level news even though it affects no one outside of a local area. The end of honest investigative journalism that used to hold people in positions of power to account
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Wild_Kraken
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by Wild_Kraken »

A couple points here.
Admiral X wrote:Inevitably this leads to the "then people should only be limited to muskets," again, this right is tied into what the average infantryman would be using as arms. And just to show how ludicrous this argument is, would you, for example, argue that free speech should be limited to printed media and standing on the side of the road yelling since that was all that was available at the time?
The comparison between types of speech and types of weapons is absurd and illegitimate. Let's run through the advancements in speech since the time of the founders.

Print media -> music -> motion pictures -> television -> video games

In each of those mediums, the amount of speech is the same. Saying something like "film is more speech than print" doesn't make sense. These are essentially different formats of the same thing. Now let's go on to weapons.

Musket -> rifle -> assault rifle -> rocket propelled grenade -> portable missile launcher -> Davey Crockett tactical nuke

A musket is not fundamentally the same as a nuke. Whereas the right of free speech can be safely extended to all new mediums that arise, extending the right to bare arms in the same manner would quickly lead to a world that would destroy itself. Unless you are among the hardest of hardcore Libertarians, no one finds private ownership of RPGs, missiles, and nukes acceptable. Which means there is an arbitrary limit to the right to bare arms. And since there is a limit, there's no reason it can't be extended to assault rifles, high capacity magazines, armor piercing bullets, etc. etc.
Admiral X wrote:"If the government ever turned tyrannical, regular people would never stand a chance."
What, so you want to make sure or something? Hell, some chance is better than no chance. The Vietcong and Iraqi insurgency gave the US military a run for their money, and we're still fighting in Afghanistan. Which, speaking of, the mujahideen gave the Soviet military a run for their money, too. I'd much rather anyone thinking they're going to pull anything in this country have to think about that old saying of "a rifle behind every blade of grass." ;)
The insurgencies in Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan are qualitatively different from any sort of hypothetical uprising or rebellion in the United States. Despite how the media might have portrayed them, those conflicts were never existential threats, and so the government never had the incentive to use all they possibly could to crush them. Any conflict originating within the United States would be an existential threat, and thus there would be the incentive to use everything in their power to win.

The last time such a threat arose in the United States was the Civil War, and the Confederacy had something better than a loose collection of poorly trained gun enthusiasts, it had a proper military comparable to that of the Union and with many officers who were considered some of the best in America, and they couldn't win. Doubtful that a ragtag group of insurgents with no leadership, minimal coordination, lack of access to combat vehicles such as tanks, jet fighters, and bombers, are going to fair any better.

But let's assume that such an insurgency could beat back the government should it ever turn tyrannical. Who decides what tyranny is? The argument rests on the unstated assumption that government tyranny would be obvious to all, but what constitutes tyranny differs from person to person. Ask a queer person in the 30s/40s/50s if the government is tyrannical and they would probably say yes, but it's hard to see most other people at the time accepting their right to overthrow the government. In the modern day people think the government is tyrannical for stupider reasons. Do you really think the tree of liberty should be watered with the blood of patriots because Cliven Bundy can't graze his cattle wherever he wants? Some would argue that a government that puts the narrow interests of the gun lobby over the lives of its own citizens is tyrannical...
Admiral X wrote:"But the victims."
Yes, it is tragic that these people lost their lives, and it always is when someone is killed or harmed through the actions of others. Is it any less tragic if someone is killed on a more personal level than through a mass shooting? Is it less tragic if someone is killed through a complete accident where no harm was intended to begin with? You are never going to convince me that curtailing the rights of everyone because of the actions of a few is the right thing to do in any case, and parading dead bodies in front of me in an attempt to appeal to emotion is frankly disgusting, and has quite the opposite effect on me. I tend to be suspicious in general of people who try to appeal to emotion, especially when it comes to suggesting I give up liberty or accept something the government wants to do "for my own good." That shit is how we got the Patriot Act.
"Appeal to emotion" lol. I hate to break it to you, but literally every policy has some emotional basis because it's impossible to derive an ought from an is. Any sort of detached logical analysis of a situation will only ever be that, an analysis. In order to act in anyway you have to inject your own set of values into the situation. Your appeal to personal rights is also, ultimately, an appeal to emotion.
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TGLS
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by TGLS »

Wild_Kraken wrote: finds private ownership of RPGs ... acceptable.
Well first they take away the RPGs, then they're taking away the RTSs, then it's the platformers and the party games and next thing you know there isn't even a copy of solitaire to play with.


More seriously: The idea that the government could become do oppressive that the only espouse is an armed uprising strikes me as a libertarian fantasy more than anything else. Native Americans were armed and were slaughtered all the same. Slaves weren't allowed to be armed and any that was would be hunted down and killed.
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TGLS
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by TGLS »

ORCACommander wrote: the constitution has declared firearms a fundamental right of the populace. (unpopular Even criminals have a right to weapons. rights are never to be denied if rights can be denied its a privilege)
Ah, so it should be called "voting privileges" not "voting rights".
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Re: Las Vegas shooting

Post by ORCACommander »

TGLS wrote:
ORCACommander wrote: the constitution has declared firearms a fundamental right of the populace. (unpopular Even criminals have a right to weapons. rights are never to be denied if rights can be denied its a privilege)
Ah, so it should be called "voting privileges" not "voting rights".
I'm sorry what is your point? this is not a thread about voter suppression.
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