On religion (in particular Christianity), rationality, and this forum - are we allowed to discuss it?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Ahhh I was seriously about to ask what you meant

I'm curious, I guess, what exactly are you expecting out of this thread with respect to your recently disclosed report?

Was anyone here giving you the impression that those specific points were at odds with their understanding of things?

My goal is to show that Christianity is a religion based on evidence, countering the notion that is doesn't have any. My goal is to show that Christianity is indeed rational rather than irrational, though also accepting that someone can be rational and come to a different conclusion to someone else who is rational.

The impression I gained was that many here thought Christianity is a religion which isn't based on evidence, that it was a religion of blind faith - I think that many in this forum hold or held that perspective - hopefully the data points post is the beginnings of a rebuttal to that.

Well I'll be darned. I just started to think you were like a missionary.

[Ixthos]

I think that most deities are separate beings, so Hard Polytheism rather than Soft Polytheism, but I am open to the idea that some deities have different aspects. There's a lot of precedent for that in Hellenic Polytheism so I have to at least entertain the idea.

I'm also open to the idea that some gods worship other gods, or of their being entities orders of magnitude greater than the gods I follow. Mostly though, I haven't formed a strong opinion as it's not relevant to my personal practice and theology.

Why do you worship the gods you do though? What made you decide on those particular ones? What does your personal practice and theology entail?

Well I'll be darned. I just started to think you were like a missionary.

I mean technically isn't everyone a type of missionary? Some use words and others use actions, all trying to give a good report of their faith and beliefs. Throw seeds and let the soil - and others who water - do the rest.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well I'll be darned. I just started to think you were like a missionary.

I mean technically isn't everyone a type of missionary? Some use words and others use actions, all trying to give a good report of their faith and beliefs. Throw seeds and let the soil - and others who water - do the rest.

I wouldn't really say that everyone's doing that, no. It is part of a human condition I'd say though.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I think that most deities are separate beings, so Hard Polytheism rather than Soft Polytheism, but I am open to the idea that some deities have different aspects. There's a lot of precedent for that in Hellenic Polytheism so I have to at least entertain the idea.

I'm also open to the idea that some gods worship other gods, or of their being entities orders of magnitude greater than the gods I follow. Mostly though, I haven't formed a strong opinion as it's not relevant to my personal practice and theology.

Why do you worship the gods you do though? What made you decide on those particular ones? What does your personal practice and theology entail?

Mine is a long and winding path.

I came to worship the gods I currently follow through a variety of ways.

Dionysus is one of the ones I've been following for the longest time, and it was a gradual process. I honestly don't remember when I started venerating Him in earnest. I learned about him through individual stories, both fiction and mythology, and my interest grew. I do remember I prayed to him to get into a certain college, and that worked out for me.

The Spirit of the Night Wind reached out to me. I was going on a long road trip up in dark, winding mountains, and I was moved by the winds whistling around the state boundary rest stop where I pulled over. I felt a numinous sensation, I felt blessed, and I took that and built on it. It kept me safe on my journey, even when I blew out a tire at 80 miles an hour.

Ostara is a weird case. I started out learning that apparently the holiday of Easter has traditions that were originally to honor Her, and I felt bad about that, so I started making offerings to Her around that time. I learned that this case is somewhat historically uncertain, but the evidence is strong enough for me at least. (One thing that's tough about being Pagan, sometimes there's dispute not just as to whether your gods exist, but whether they were ever even worshipped or came to be known as a result of anthropological misinformation or somebody with an academic ax to grind and a book to sell.) She also nicely fit into my pantheon and addressed domain areas I needed, and I like Her stories, and generally She blessed me in the agricultural and health areas. (I got a winter squash that I never planted, for example.)

Hecate is the one I most actively sought out. My least had just been terminated, I didn't know where I would live, and I needed a lot of help. I'd researched Her a bit, thought about Her, and considered that, if I were to be henotheistic, She would be a good choice to worship. Her domains, complexity, and ideology appealed to me, and she was an extremely powerful being. At that time, I really needed somebody strong batting in my corner and I needed a home, so I turned to her while looking up at a beautiful moon and prayed. There have been ups and downs since then, but I continued offerings and building my relationship.


My practice, like my pantheon, is something I've more or less assembled piecemeal. That makes sense given that I'm an Ecclectic Pagan, rather than a strict adherent of a single revived regional tradition like Celtic Paganism or Kemetic Paganism. I'm honestly challenged trying to figure what is the most important element, or the core, or even what order to explain them in. Forgive me, please, if this ends up a bit rambling.

I guess I'll begin with prayer. For each deity I worship, I have a form of address, listing Their attributes and appellations, drawing on both mythological texts (where available) and my own personal conception and experience of Them. I pray out loud, even if its under my breath. With standard, basic prayers, I wear at least one holy symbol consecrated to the god in question, I purify myself by washing or sanitizing my hands and say the invocation while lighting a candle or incense at Their altar. Then I say what I am praying for, a request, thanks, or simply an affirmation of Them. I finish by saying "Praise (Name)". Frequently, I will pray to multiple gods in succession, and/or about the same thing, but that is usually for really big stuff or when I've got a lot on my mind. Frankincense and Sandlewood, or unscented candles, are my all-purpose incense and candles, but I have specific kinds of incense and scented candles I favor for each of my deities.

Making offerings is a big part of my practice. Sometimes these have included food offerings, but mostly I do libations: a drink, usually alcoholic, poured out onto the ground for the deity in question. I make the offering while wearing the deity's holy symbol, after purifying, outdoors (I have icons for each of Them outside now but for a long time this was not the case). Offerings are a bigger deal than incense/candle prayers. Lots of things, like rum and wine, are generally good, but I use different types of drinks that fit different gods better (tequila for Dionysus, Chamomile tea for Ostara, Applejack for Hecate, Mountain Dew for the Spirit of the Night Wind). When I make the libation, I take the first sip of it, to show that it's good and I'm not just discarding something with no value to me, and sometimes the last drop after pouring it out.

Philanthropy is the most straightforward part of my practice. There's a variety of nonprofits I support in line with each deity's domains, like a community gardening group for Ostara, a cemetery for Hecate, a theater for Dionysus, a bat preservation group for the Spirit of the Night wind, etc. Back when I had regular income I set aside 12% of my work income for donations, but these days I just do donations on the holidays where I honor the gods in question.

More stuff to talk about but this is already running pretty long.

[Ixthos]

I think that most deities are separate beings, so Hard Polytheism rather than Soft Polytheism, but I am open to the idea that some deities have different aspects. There's a lot of precedent for that in Hellenic Polytheism so I have to at least entertain the idea.

I'm also open to the idea that some gods worship other gods, or of their being entities orders of magnitude greater than the gods I follow. Mostly though, I haven't formed a strong opinion as it's not relevant to my personal practice and theology.

Why do you worship the gods you do though? What made you decide on those particular ones? What does your personal practice and theology entail?

Mine is a long and winding path.

I came to worship the gods I currently follow through a variety of ways.

Dionysus is one of the ones I've been following for the longest time, and it was a gradual process. I honestly don't remember when I started venerating Him in earnest. I learned about him through individual stories, both fiction and mythology, and my interest grew. I do remember I prayed to him to get into a certain college, and that worked out for me.

The Spirit of the Night Wind reached out to me. I was going on a long road trip up in dark, winding mountains, and I was moved by the winds whistling around the state boundary rest stop where I pulled over. I felt a numinous sensation, I felt blessed, and I took that and built on it. It kept me safe on my journey, even when I blew out a tire at 80 miles an hour.

Ostara is a weird case. I started out learning that apparently the holiday of Easter has traditions that were originally to honor Her, and I felt bad about that, so I started making offerings to Her around that time. I learned that this case is somewhat historically uncertain, but the evidence is strong enough for me at least. (One thing that's tough about being Pagan, sometimes there's dispute not just as to whether your gods exist, but whether they were ever even worshipped or came to be known as a result of anthropological misinformation or somebody with an academic ax to grind and a book to sell.) She also nicely fit into my pantheon and addressed domain areas I needed, and I like Her stories, and generally She blessed me in the agricultural and health areas. (I got a winter squash that I never planted, for example.)

Hecate is the one I most actively sought out. My least had just been terminated, I didn't know where I would live, and I needed a lot of help. I'd researched Her a bit, thought about Her, and considered that, if I were to be henotheistic, She would be a good choice to worship. Her domains, complexity, and ideology appealed to me, and she was an extremely powerful being. At that time, I really needed somebody strong batting in my corner and I needed a home, so I turned to her while looking up at a beautiful moon and prayed. There have been ups and downs since then, but I continued offerings and building my relationship.


My practice, like my pantheon, is something I've more or less assembled piecemeal. That makes sense given that I'm an Ecclectic Pagan, rather than a strict adherent of a single revived regional tradition like Celtic Paganism or Kemetic Paganism. I'm honestly challenged trying to figure what is the most important element, or the core, or even what order to explain them in. Forgive me, please, if this ends up a bit rambling.

I guess I'll begin with prayer. For each deity I worship, I have a form of address, listing Their attributes and appellations, drawing on both mythological texts (where available) and my own personal conception and experience of Them. I pray out loud, even if its under my breath. With standard, basic prayers, I wear at least one holy symbol consecrated to the god in question, I purify myself by washing or sanitizing my hands and say the invocation while lighting a candle or incense at Their altar. Then I say what I am praying for, a request, thanks, or simply an affirmation of Them. I finish by saying "Praise (Name)". Frequently, I will pray to multiple gods in succession, and/or about the same thing, but that is usually for really big stuff or when I've got a lot on my mind. Frankincense and Sandlewood, or unscented candles, are my all-purpose incense and candles, but I have specific kinds of incense and scented candles I favor for each of my deities.

Making offerings is a big part of my practice. Sometimes these have included food offerings, but mostly I do libations: a drink, usually alcoholic, poured out onto the ground for the deity in question. I make the offering while wearing the deity's holy symbol, after purifying, outdoors (I have icons for each of Them outside now but for a long time this was not the case). Offerings are a bigger deal than incense/candle prayers. Lots of things, like rum and wine, are generally good, but I use different types of drinks that fit different gods better (tequila for Dionysus, Chamomile tea for Ostara, Applejack for Hecate, Mountain Dew for the Spirit of the Night Wind). When I make the libation, I take the first sip of it, to show that it's good and I'm not just discarding something with no value to me, and sometimes the last drop after pouring it out.

Philanthropy is the most straightforward part of my practice. There's a variety of nonprofits I support in line with each deity's domains, like a community gardening group for Ostara, a cemetery for Hecate, a theater for Dionysus, a bat preservation group for the Spirit of the Night wind, etc. Back when I had regular income I set aside 12% of my work income for donations, but these days I just do donations on the holidays where I honor the gods in question.

More stuff to talk about but this is already running pretty long.

By all means continue - also, if I may, where did you learn those rituals you use when making an offering?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

On the subject of rituals, I mostly draw on the Ancient Greek polytheism for my ritual offerings. The hand-washing or sanitizing is a simplified version of the ritual baths of purification done before making sacrifice. Incense, candle lighting, and pouring out libations are all part of traditional Hellenic polytheism.

Following up on the Practice part.

I celebrate astronomic points of the seasons as Holy Days. I've shifted which holiday I honor which deity on as I develop my praxis. All of these four holidays I celebrate by making donations in honor of the deity of focus, lighting a candle and burning incense for them, and pouring out a big libation for them. I celebrate each holiday with the "Air Moves Us" chant and, if anyone is observing with me, dance in a circle. I also frequently celebrate Winter Solstice and the Equinoxes by inviting over friends and family to party with me, although generally speaking they don't share my faith.
On the Spring Equinox I honor Ostara, and celebrate with Celebration Field Roast (I'm vegetarian), I dye eggs, eat some of them and offer up others as sacrifice. I sometimes sacrifice a chocolate rabbit too. I do a ritual melting of ice (or, in the unusual incident that it's still snowing by then, some snow) while chanting to welcome the coming of spring and the end of winter. Sometimes I plant a seed.
Summer Solstice is when I honor Dionysus. I go visiting gay bars. I go to the theater and see a play. It's the most social of my holidays.
Fall Equinox is generally a solemn holiday for me, when I honor Hecate. I drink and eat pumpkin-spice flavored things and I go to a cemetery to have a picnic.
Winter Solstice is when I honor Shhsh, the Spirit of the Night Wind, and it's a big blowout for me. I have a lot of different traditions to draw on. I make mulled wine, I cook a tofurky ham roast and some kind of root vegetables and brussel sprouts, I play a specially selected playlist of music, I have cheese and crackers and mead, and generally go hard celebrating. I try to have a "bonfire", but given that I don't own a firepit and live in a small Philadelphia housing, that's generally limited to a tiki torch or a fire in a hibatchi. I try to go extra-hard on Winter Solstice to make up for the fact that I usually visit my family for Christmas and I don't want the holiday to get overshadowed in my life.

I try to keep true to ethos of each deity. Be kind to the homeless and delight in the sight of dogs because of Hecate, revel in birds, bees and flowers for Ostara, thrill in creative endeavors and drunken ecstasy to honor Dionysus, and of course take comfort in the numinous power of the Night Wind.

I don't have a lot in the way of coherent theology. I believe that some or most gods exist and I try to evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. I avoid disrespecting any deity whether I believe in them or not. I don't suppose much about the origins of the gods I follow or the universe I live in, content to know that they are older and more powerful and wiser than me.

Honestly, it's difficult being a Pagan, especially an Eclectic Pagan. I'm a member of the laity without an ordained cleric to turn to. I don't have any singular holy text to rely on, just scattered variants of different myths and Unverified Personal Gnosis. To say that my religious community is sporadic and scattered would be putting it mildly. You know about organized religion? Paganism is disorganized religion.

I have the odd existential or theological crisis, but I think that has more to do about who I am than my particular faith. I think I'd manage to have theological crises even if I was an atheist. Personally, I've been agnostic in the past and I really can't handle atheism. I need something to stand between me and the chilly cosmic void.

[Ixthos]

On the subject of rituals, I mostly draw on the Ancient Greek polytheism for my ritual offerings. The hand-washing or sanitizing is a simplified version of the ritual baths of purification done before making sacrifice. Incense, candle lighting, and pouring out libations are all part of traditional Hellenic polytheism.

Following up on the Practice part.

I celebrate astronomic points of the seasons as Holy Days. I've shifted which holiday I honor which deity on as I develop my praxis. All of these four holidays I celebrate by making donations in honor of the deity of focus, lighting a candle and burning incense for them, and pouring out a big libation for them. I celebrate each holiday with the "Air Moves Us" chant and, if anyone is observing with me, dance in a circle. I also frequently celebrate Winter Solstice and the Equinoxes by inviting over friends and family to party with me, although generally speaking they don't share my faith.
On the Spring Equinox I honor Ostara, and celebrate with Celebration Field Roast (I'm vegetarian), I dye eggs, eat some of them and offer up others as sacrifice. I sometimes sacrifice a chocolate rabbit too. I do a ritual melting of ice (or, in the unusual incident that it's still snowing by then, some snow) while chanting to welcome the coming of spring and the end of winter. Sometimes I plant a seed.
Summer Solstice is when I honor Dionysus. I go visiting gay bars. I go to the theater and see a play. It's the most social of my holidays.
Fall Equinox is generally a solemn holiday for me, when I honor Hecate. I drink and eat pumpkin-spice flavored things and I go to a cemetery to have a picnic.
Winter Solstice is when I honor Shhsh, the Spirit of the Night Wind, and it's a big blowout for me. I have a lot of different traditions to draw on. I make mulled wine, I cook a tofurky ham roast and some kind of root vegetables and brussel sprouts, I play a specially selected playlist of music, I have cheese and crackers and mead, and generally go hard celebrating. I try to have a "bonfire", but given that I don't own a firepit and live in a small Philadelphia housing, that's generally limited to a tiki torch or a fire in a hibatchi. I try to go extra-hard on Winter Solstice to make up for the fact that I usually visit my family for Christmas and I don't want the holiday to get overshadowed in my life.

I try to keep true to ethos of each deity. Be kind to the homeless and delight in the sight of dogs because of Hecate, revel in birds, bees and flowers for Ostara, thrill in creative endeavors and drunken ecstasy to honor Dionysus, and of course take comfort in the numinous power of the Night Wind.

I don't have a lot in the way of coherent theology. I believe that some or most gods exist and I try to evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. I avoid disrespecting any deity whether I believe in them or not. I don't suppose much about the origins of the gods I follow or the universe I live in, content to know that they are older and more powerful and wiser than me.

Honestly, it's difficult being a Pagan, especially an Eclectic Pagan. I'm a member of the laity without an ordained cleric to turn to. I don't have any singular holy text to rely on, just scattered variants of different myths and Unverified Personal Gnosis. To say that my religious community is sporadic and scattered would be putting it mildly. You know about organized religion? Paganism is disorganized religion.

I have the odd existential or theological crisis, but I think that has more to do about who I am than my particular faith. I think I'd manage to have theological crises even if I was an atheist. Personally, I've been agnostic in the past and I really can't handle atheism. I need something to stand between me and the chilly cosmic void.

Thank you very much for your insightful responses. I do have a few more questions, and I would like to mull over a few of them a little more before asking, but there are three in particular I would like to ask now, and the rest I'll hopefully ask later.

The first is do you consider any of the deities you worship now might be renamed entities that you worship already. To clarify, while you haven't mentioned worshipping Venus, etc., if you met a pagan who did worship Venus and also worshipped Ishtar, would you believe they actually are worshipping one deity or two, as Venus is the Roman name for Aphrodite, who is very likely the Greek take on Astarte, who is based on Ishtar - so the worship of Venus is traced back to Ishtar and so in theory both are the same being. So then, in a similar vein, as most understanding of a lot of these deities comes from worship that branched and split - including the Egyptian tendency to combine and separate deities - would you consider if someone else worshipped Dionysus or a deity from a culture which was based on their absorbing the practice of worshipping Dionysus as a deity of madness while you see them more as a deity of revelry, would you consider them to be worshipping the same being you do?

Second question is a minor clarification, but do you go to gay bars because you are gay, or because you believe gay bars - even if you are straight or bisexual - are what Dionysus worship requires? That is, whether or not you are gay would you go to a gay bar, or if you weren't gay or bisexual you would go to some other establishment?

Third question is how aware of you and their other worshippers do you feel they are? That is, do they sense your offerings, do they know you specifically, do they need the worship or is the worship entirely for their followers benefit, and how much do you feel they communicate to you, especially considering as you say your religion is disorganised with no central authority?

Thank you. My next questions for later are on the idea of the cosmic void. Until then I hope you have a great week!

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

So let me answer your questions.

There's always been a degree of syncretism in religion. I think it's possible that some people know the gods I worship by another name, but I'm wary of over-universalizing. People like to draw a lot into their grand unified theory of mythology. For example, while I accept Aphrodite and Venus as basically the same deity, I'm less sold on the Astarte connection.

I'm bisexual myself, but I believe that gay bars are spaces sacred to Dionysus. Bars in general are Dionysian spaces with the consumption of alcohol, but throw in a safe space for same-sex attraction, frequent drag shows, and pulsing Lady Gaga music and it's a perfect fit. Does that answer your question?

In terms of awareness, I believe they hear prayers and receive acts of worship. Whether they actually need human worship or not, I believe it pleases them. As for communication, opinions and experiences vary widely within the NeoPagan world. I myself sometimes look for signs, but never get anything close to direct contact, visions, etc.

[McAvoy]

So let me answer your questions.

There's always been a degree of syncretism in religion. I think it's possible that some people know the gods I worship by another name, but I'm wary of over-universalizing. People like to draw a lot into their grand unified theory of mythology. For example, while I accept Aphrodite and Venus as basically the same deity, I'm less sold on the Astarte connection.

I'm bisexual myself, but I believe that gay bars are spaces sacred to Dionysus. Bars in general are Dionysian spaces with the consumption of alcohol, but throw in a safe space for same-sex attraction, frequent drag shows, and pulsing Lady Gaga music and it's a perfect fit. Does that answer your question?

In terms of awareness, I believe they hear prayers and receive acts of worship. Whether they actually need human worship or not, I believe it pleases them. As for communication, opinions and experiences vary widely within the NeoPagan world. I myself sometimes look for signs, but never get anything close to direct contact, visions, etc.

To be honest, it is interesting to read about this. Worshipping or at least believing in what most would call 'dead gods' or 'false gods'.

Personally I view the different gods (like the ones you havd mentioned) as one of the reasons why I don't believe in any God or gods.

[J!!]