Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

[aceina]

Also I'd be remiss to let this get to page 5 without posting the meme xD

heh thoe nanoha is more like gundam than DBZ

[Formless One]

The first movie is a solid replacement for the first season (Which can take a while to get into gear). Interestingly, the movies are...a little bit propaganda-ish, in a fun way. They're in-universe movies, so elements of them have been changed by people to show/reduce some aspects.

Only the first two movies, and even then the multimedia established it as its own separate continuity in addition to there being an in-universe movie in the television continuity. Its weird, which is possibly why they dropped the conceit in the last two films. I mean, it was really just an excuse for having a commentary track where the Japanese VA's did commentary as older versions of their characters, and honestly, you don't need an excuse to do that. Most of the audience will probably just appreciate the joke for what it is without having a canonical explanation for how this is possible. They know its just a movie.

So the last two movies just don't have an in-character commentary track, and the tie-in comic is treated as a normal tie-in comic rather than a "behind the scenes" gag like the audio dramas of the past. I think that this is probably because even by the time they wrote movie 2, they already knew they couldn't do a direct adaptation of season 3. Its just too long, and besides, I think they know it sucked and why. Movie 2's coda only skips ahead about a year or two, whereas the televised coda skipped ahead seven or eight, and the next season skipped ahead ten. That time skip was an absolute disastrous choice in hindsight. The overuse of exposition, the failure to introduce the new setting effectively, the failure to introduce the massive cast of new characters in a natural way, and the tendency to sideline the titular character of the show long before the audience was ready for a passing of the torch-- all this is because of that damn ten year time skip. Of course, the terrible pacing and overabundance of unnecessary characters is just bad storytelling in general (raise your hand if you give a shit about the helicopter pilot. Seriously, why did he take up so much screentime?), and IMO its probably the single worst thing about season three. I literally skipped from episode 4 to episode 10 because I found out the inciting incident doesn't happen in the first 9 episodes of the show. That's just terrible.

So the most recent movies only skip ahead 2 years, and they only use the bare bones of season 3's plot structure; the themes and most of the characters are completely different, and while I don't dislike the characters of StrikerS, IMO Reflection and Detonation are an outright improvement in every way.

A's was great. But I have to said SS is disappointing. Never watched ViVid or ViVid Strike, I wonder how those two were rank?

Vivid is primarily dragged down by its strong ties to season 3 (which as I said sucked), ties to an audio drama that never got officially exported to the west (actually, neither did Vivid, but at least an official English subtitle track was made), and the fact that the anime promised a second season that never happened. Its been five years, and there is no sign they are working on it. But even if you do read the manga that its based on, it meanders and makes more explicit use of fanservice than ever before in a franchise whose fanservice is notoriously creepy-- and probably the single worst example of this did make it into the anime. I mean, season 1's transformation scenes can legitimately be chalked up to Japan's perceptions of nudity being slightly different from America, but even by season 2 you start getting the feeling that they are doing it to deliberately pander to young boys. Vivid is definitely pandering-- and its not clear that its to an appropriate age group anymore. There is literally a scene where an 18 year old girl gropes a 10 year old's chest as an ill-thought out "prank", and the only consequences for it are the 18 year old getting chewed out by the actual adults around-- one of whom is a cop! Did I mention the 18 year old is also a nun? That's so many kinds of screwed I like to pretend it never happened whenever I watch Vivid Strike!*. And fortunately, Vivid Strike makes that really, really easy.

If you can get past all of that (there is also two chapters involving a witch who can make clothes vanish, but at least there its an incidental effect of a combat spell rather than explicitly sexual act) you can start to see why it managed 7 years in print and even got finished unlike its sister series Nanoha Force. Its competently written, has other kinds of fanservice besides the sexual, but it never really goes anywhere or develops as a story. It had too many ideas and failed to create tension at almost any point around which it could explore those ideas. So I would give it a pass if I were you.

Vivid Strike! on the other hand is actually really good. I know some people will tell you otherwise simply because Nanoha doesn't appear in it, but pay them no attention. It basically takes the concept from Vivid of magical girls competing in combat sports (kickboxing, mainly) and runs with it. Despite initial appearances its not just a sports anime, since it does have thematic echos of Nanoha's first season, which pushes the narrative into greatness. Plus, the pacing is actually good for the first time since season 2. Also, you can actually show it to people who have never watched a Nanoha series before because it has a new protagonist (Fuuka) who knows nothing of the previous seasons, and doesn't think it important to ask. So none of the convoluted backstory from season 3 or Vivid matters here. Knowing things like why Vivio competes or why Nove can't compete will add something to the experience, but that's all. There is still some fanservice, but at least this time its mostly reserved the transformation sequences again, with the exception of one joke that's played off as a legitimate accident in the story, and one bath house scene (of course). I'd go so far as to say only the most recent movies have less fanservice in them than Vivid Strike! does. Mostly, Vivid Strike! doesn't care for titillation so much as it does bone-breaking punches.

*(yes, Vivid Strike! is officially spelled with a !)

Are you be facecious or has that genuinely happened in the later series?

(I am afraid I never did manage to track the later series down after StrikerS.)

Its implied to have happened offscreen, yes. Besides the argument to authorial intent (Tsuzuki, the guy who writes every Nanoha series and film, has answered questions about the nature of their relationship as if we should take for granted that they are effectively married), there is in-universe evidence for it regarding the treatment of Vivio. Basically, even though StrikerS said Fate was her godmother, Vivio says that she has two mothers and that this situation is unusual-- even though the characters in StrikerS acted like having a godmother is the most natural thing in the world. So basically, Vivio is saying that Fate is more than just a godmother, she's her mother, plain and simple. Fate also lives in the same household as Nanoha and Vivio, which says a lot all by itself, especially because Fate technically also has her own adopted children who don't live with her (Erio and Cairo). Meaning, she's closer to Vivio than her own canonical kids! And there are implications that Fate actually has joint custody over Vivio, a right reserved for married couples in every country I know of. Finally, in the InnocentS manga, there is a time travel incident involving Vivio meeting Nanoha and Fate as kids, and her friend has to shut her up regarding her parentage on the assumption she could accidentally cause a Grandfather paradox-- implying that in the Brave Duel universe, either Nanoha or Fate is her biological mother somehow. Given that Nanoha is a multiverse, its hard to say what kind of canon statement that makes, but it certainly says something.

[aceina]

on the innoccentS manga you just mentioned it should be noted that is a different universe where everything is a card game sort of its very wierd and confusing (i still love it)

[aaa1e2r3]

So I'm guessing we'll be getting a switch from Dub to Sub again, if we're covering the seasons beyond season 1

[aceina]

So I'm guessing we'll be getting a switch from Dub to Sub again, if we're covering the seasons beyond season 1

er season 2 is also dubbed but 3 and beyond are not

[s955120]

Vivid Strike! on the other hand is actually really good. I know some people will tell you otherwise simply because Nanoha doesn't appear in it, but pay them no attention. It basically takes the concept from Vivid of magical girls competing in combat sports (kickboxing, mainly) and runs with it.

Thank you for your very detailed respond.
I think I'll give Vivid Strike! a try. It's was available on my streaming service, I just never got the motive to watch it after that season 3...

[Archon_Wing]

Vivid is pretty awful. Not only does it take on a really generic art style, it was the very definition of a stagnant series drowned in its own series tendencies.

I guess it's a problem with any long running series but eventually a series will often get really insular and sorta worshiping of itself and becomes self congratulatory to the point where new people can't really get into the series beyond its own fandom. Just a lot of cheap pandering only fans are going to grasp. It's kinda like what Star Trek was in the early 2000s during late VOY/ENT. I mean, it's particularly endemic in anime which is already a super niche medium with a lot of questionable content.

So when Vivid came out 8 years after the last installment which really wasn't very good to begin with and we get something so phoned in just felt like the franchise was just all washed up especially in a post-Madoka landscape. The movies are kinda nice but for the longest time they were also stuck since the first 2 are remakes and ultimately don't tread new ground. The other two are quite hard to enjoy I would say if you're not a fan, but it seems to be heading in a good direction for once.

The show in general loves to introduce too many characters and then introduce even more characters on top of it. It is impossible to keep track of them. It's actually somewhat commendable on the series' parts that I can remember a good chunk of their names but I sorta gave up in the middle of StrikerS.

[ProfessorDetective]

the "anime voices" of the english dub are so grating, I kinda understand why "weebs" got beat up in school.
I liked this show, though I don't remember much past liking it

If Chuck wants a magical girl show with more distinct personalities, 'Magical Girl Raising Project' has that in spades. Only one problem though, pretty much all the likable are systematically and vindictively murdered throughout its 12 episodes, leaving you pissed off and depressed by the end.

So, like most popular cable television from the last decade or so? Hard pass.

[aceina]

o can i just say i hate when people call madoka a deconstruction of the magical girl genre

sailor moon deconstructed the tropes far harder and it was the series that established those tropes

[MithrandirOlorin]

I'm not sure how much of the background from the games Nanoha is a spin-off from you can really read into things as, well, there are at least a few portions are obviously aren't true. I think it's best to consider the games as having provided the looks and names for some of the characters, but that's about it. Mind you, Nanoha's dad obviously did used to have an immensely dangerous job in this setting, but it need not be the same kind of job. Kinda fun to think of alternate ones that would have resulted in those injuries, actually. I like to think that there's an action movie plot happening in the background of this series around Shiro, with somebody trying to drag him back for "one last assignment" while he insists he's just a baker now, but because Nanoha is so focused on her new magical girl duties she doesn't notice.

As for whether or not A's was requested... look, I'm not made of money. I had to save up for a while to get this one in the queue. Maybe somebody else has/will do it, but I haven't.

See this is why we should have just done the first movie, then we could do the series proper because important stuff actually happens in A's xD

I mean legit I think the movie is a far better way to get someone into the series than the...actual first series. It works out! Since you're only really cramming about <3 hours of "important" material into two. xD And the fights are so gorgeous in the movies, too.

I actually hate the movie versions, for one thing all the sob story back story for Fate's Mom annoyed me.