Hope and Fear

[McAvoy]

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

Probably they took over more than one holosuite. There's no reason you have to be anywhere near the other people in the real world - with subspace linkage, you could even be in different star systems as long as you were willing to put up with a little lag.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

If you're not close together, the software doesn't have to worry about you interacting with them. It's not more complicated than having your virtual locations be near.

Have we ever seen Trek characters enter and leave a holodeck or holosuite all together? I can't recall.

But having them use two or three linked rooms for the same program makes sense. Like Take Me Out to the Holosuite where you have 19-20 people interacting with the program.

Frequently, yes. Also, characters often walk into someone's holodeck/suite program already in progress, usually interrupting whatever is going on.

It would make SENSE if they were instanced off in little corners, but that has never actually been seen onscreen.

I am talking about seeing let's say more than three or four walking into a holoprogram. Not in progress. Just starting.

[clearspira]

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

Probably they took over more than one holosuite. There's no reason you have to be anywhere near the other people in the real world - with subspace linkage, you could even be in different star systems as long as you were willing to put up with a little lag.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

If you're not close together, the software doesn't have to worry about you interacting with them. It's not more complicated than having your virtual locations be near.

Have we ever seen Trek characters enter and leave a holodeck or holosuite all together? I can't recall.

But having them use two or three linked rooms for the same program makes sense. Like Take Me Out to the Holosuite where you have 19-20 people interacting with the program.

Frequently, yes. Also, characters often walk into someone's holodeck/suite program already in progress, usually interrupting whatever is going on.

It would make SENSE if they were instanced off in little corners, but that has never actually been seen onscreen.

I am talking about seeing let's say more than three or four walking into a holoprogram. Not in progress. Just starting.

Networking holodecks is a good idea in theory and it would work well on the Galaxy-Class which is specifically designed to house and entertain a thousand people including families. We easily even fanwank in some kind of ''megaplex'' that we've never seen before. Problem is, we know for a fact that Voyager only has two, and DS9's holosuites are run for profit. If you slip ten bars of latinum to Quark he may be willing to network up his holosuites occasionally but that can't be normal.

[clearspira]

Holodeck problems are many and infinite. One of the most glaring to me has always been how one can play baseball in a 10x10 holosuite. (It's impossible with more than one player... you'd hit the other players with the bat)

There IS no bat. Your body is effectively encased in a shield of force fields and photons that interacts with your body in roughly the same way that the 'real' simulated environment would. For simplicity, if space permits actual replicated substances are used, but the simulator chamber only needs to be large enough for everyone involved to be present without touching each other.

So you could go on a journey of thousands of miles but never physically move from one spot.

Larger holodecks exist for the sole purpose of permitting large numbers of users simultaneously.

That's my point. The Holosuites are ten by ten. Even if the tech works exactly like that (and it was never depicted as such... but sure, I'll go with it), there's not enough room for 9 players on the field and one at bat.

And you also can't get lost in there no matter what. Yeah... you could go on a long journey. But everyone in your party needs to stay relatively close together or it's going to be an issue for the software.

Let's be honest about this: the holodeck is a mess of contradictions, bad writing and poor planning. Sometimes there is a wall five feet from you, and sometimes it has TARDIS like proportions. Sometimes you are ''washed away'' if the holodeck is turned off when you are in it and sometimes you aren't. Sometimes it is completely incompatible with Voyager's power grid and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you can take holomatter off it, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes holograms are alive, and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes it puts clothes over your existing clothes, and sometimes you need to wear your own. And all of those stupid safety protocols designed to kill you.

All of this shit we are coming up with here: treadmills despite a completely smooth floor, sound muffling force fields, vision distorting fields... its all bollocks really. We are trying to put in more thought into it than the writers ever did.

Its a pity the Matrix wasn't out in the 1980s because I think a neural interface would work 100X better than this magical room ever has or ever will.

Exactly this. The writers treated the Holodeck like a virtual reality simulation, NOT a physical room. I mean... if the forcefields can do everything some of the posters say they can, then how come forcefields are used for so little else in Trek?

If you can use a forcefield to manipulate matter so perfectly... I mean, damn. Quick example... the main use of forefields it to absorb damage from attacks. But, if you can wrap a forcefield around matter and manipulate it, etc... wouldn't you just use that to "catch" incoming torpedoes? Or, hell, energy blasts since the forefields can apparently catch photons, too? Once caught, your forcefield could reach in and remove the detonator. Or just transport it away. A lot of the world falls apart if your forcefields are THAT powerful.

I guess manipulatable forcefields/"hard" holograms are where the idea for The Doctor came from, even if he's not very well thought out either. I mean... how come there can only be ONE instance of him at any given time? Why does he need a "physical" form at all? I could ramble, but I'll save it for later.

Everything about Trek's holograms are inconsistent. The Doctor in season 1 of VOY once sucked so badly at inventing a pair of holographic lungs for Neelix that the latter was restricted immobile to a bed for life. Meanwhile in season 4, the Hirogen using the exact same technology managed to project a late-trimester baby into Torres's womb. I've heard some people argue that it wasn't a baby and just some kind of mass but that flies in the face of Torres's comment that she can feel it kicking.

I actually have no problem with the idea of a holobaby, I have a problem with the idea that the Doctor and Voyager's trained engineering team couldn't keep a pair of lungs going to the point that Neelix could walk about sickbay, but the Hirogen (whom Seven once referred to as ''completely unremarkable apart from their size'') could impregnate Torres with something far more sophisticated after only a few months of study.

[Nobody700]

So cause I wanna, I rather liked this episode. I wish it did do more but it's nice seeing a mastermind have a legit grievance with Voyager and while I'm certain it didn't, I like to think Night Janeway considered him in her depression in the dark.

[Fianna]

I'd guess the difference between the holobaby and the hololungs is that the holobaby wasn't connected to Torres's bloodstream. There was probably no holoumbilical holocord; all the holokid had to do was take up space, move and kick occasionally to simulate a real baby, and that's it. But the hololungs didn't just need to take air in and spit it back out; they also had to be able to pass oxygen into Neelix's bloodstream and take other gases back out. That seems like a far more complicated setup.

[McAvoy]

I'd guess the difference between the holobaby and the hololungs is that the holobaby wasn't connected to Torres's bloodstream. There was probably no holoumbilical holocord; all the holokid had to do was take up space, move and kick occasionally to simulate a real baby, and that's it. But the hololungs didn't just need to take air in and spit it back out; they also had to be able to pass oxygen into Neelix's bloodstream and take other gases back out. That seems like a far more complicated setup.

Thats what I figured.

Like if someone would scan Torres belly they wouldn't really see a baby in there but just a mass there with the computer simulating the kicks and movements as needed. Just a bit more complicated than hologram generated clothing.

Holobabies being made exactly how a real baby would be excessive for a simulation.

[CharlesPhipps]

So cause I wanna, I rather liked this episode. I wish it did do more but it's nice seeing a mastermind have a legit grievance with Voyager and while I'm certain it didn't, I like to think Night Janeway considered him in her depression in the dark.

It's interesting to speculate whether the Species really was just horribly misunderstood or not.

[Frustration]

The problems described above are related to Voyager, which had terrible writing, and writers who couldn't extrapolate consequences to the end of an episode, much less stretching across seasons.

No Star Trek show has been without problems and self-contradictions, but best to exclude Voyager completely if you want to maintain your sanity and reach meaningful conclusions.

[Swiftbow]

I'd guess the difference between the holobaby and the hololungs is that the holobaby wasn't connected to Torres's bloodstream. There was probably no holoumbilical holocord; all the holokid had to do was take up space, move and kick occasionally to simulate a real baby, and that's it. But the hololungs didn't just need to take air in and spit it back out; they also had to be able to pass oxygen into Neelix's bloodstream and take other gases back out. That seems like a far more complicated setup.

Thats what I figured.

Like if someone would scan Torres belly they wouldn't really see a baby in there but just a mass there with the computer simulating the kicks and movements as needed. Just a bit more complicated than hologram generated clothing.

Holobabies being made exactly how a real baby would be excessive for a simulation.

I forgot about that episode.

Regardless... here's the ideal limiter they probably should have gone with for any holo-beings, based on the fact that (at least most of the time) they were said to need a projector. (The mobile emitter being a moveable version of that.)
- You can't project something past or inside something else... because real matter would block the visible spectrum, and, therefore, the hologram.

This would invalidate both the hololungs and the holobaby... but I think that's okay. Those are both weird as hell. Also, it would create a physical limitation for the doctor that makes him a little less invincible. (Because hell... that evil hologram they met later was nearly unstoppable.)

[Swiftbow]

Networking holodecks is a good idea in theory and it would work well on the Galaxy-Class which is specifically designed to house and entertain a thousand people including families. We easily even fanwank in some kind of ''megaplex'' that we've never seen before. Problem is, we know for a fact that Voyager only has two, and DS9's holosuites are run for profit. If you slip ten bars of latinum to Quark he may be willing to network up his holosuites occasionally but that can't be normal.

Yeah, this just cements my original point... you can't play baseball in two tiny holosuites, even with networking.

The episode could have easily solved it by having them play on Bajor. It's a headscratcher as to why they didn't. Could also have been quite entertaining to see Sisko trying to start a Bajoran league as a sideplot.