VOY - Natural Law

[CrypticMirror]

I'm with Madner Kami. This barrier has hampered the development of the Ventu. By allowing the barrier to go back up has condemned to living in a terrarium. But, like many Star Trek episodes, Voyager will just head out and not have to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Chuck is right that the Ventu should've been asked what they wanted. They probably would like their territory respected, but I suspect being kept under a dome would be a non-starter.

That is my opinion regarding all of those ''beautiful'' Amazon tribes that fire arrows at helicopters. ''Ooh! What about their culture!'' someone always bleats.

So? What about their culture? They live in filth, they die of preventable diseases, they think a helicopter is a dragon. Whatever stories they have, or unique language they developed or god they worship will still be there if they are wearing jeans and have a Big Mac in their hand.

''Ooh! But what is so good about us?'' someone always bleats.

You mean, apart from our advanced medicine, plentiful food and water, instant communication, knowledge of the universe, warm clothes, housing that isn't made out of mud and twigs? The poorest Westerner lives a life infinitely better than anyone who is living at a cro magnon level of development no matter how much those of us spoiled by it like to moan. Fact is, the rest of us developed AWAY from how they live for a reason.

Literally the reasoning that led to abducting children of indigenous cultures and re-education camps. Thanks for playing the game of genocide, you are the winner; you genocided first.

[Mabus]

This episode got me thinking:
1. What exactly is the exact threshold at which the Prime Directive is considered broken? If the space aliens only present themselves to one single native group, and the native other groups from the planet aren't affect (ex: Apollo only affected the Greek populations and didn't appear to interfere with say, ancient Chinese states or Amazonian tribes; the aliens from "Tattoo" only affected the development of some Native American tribes, while ignoring the rest of the planet), can the Prime Directive even be considered broken?
2. Was there any episode anywhere in Trek where there was a piece of alien technology left on Earth that affected the development of any Earth cultures? For some reason, unlike other planet of the week episodes, where they keep finding ancient alien artifacts, Earth is largely free of ancient alien tech. Hell, there aren't even alien artifacts in our solar system in Trek. How would that affect Prime Directive? Won't that mean that the Vulcans can now interfere? In fact...
3. Let's say for a moment that in a parallel universe Earth, NASA discovers an ancient alien ship crashed on the Moon eons ago. The Vulcans never saw it, no one else did. But by sheer accident, NASA manages to find it, during Apollo 11 mission, and try to salvage the ship. Does that mean that since our culture has been "contaminated" by the confirmation of existence of alien life, the Vulcans can now contact us? Is this enough for them to contact us?
4. In fact, if the Ledosians were to be in the Alpha Quadrant, and the Federation would come across their planet at a time before the Ledosians invent warp drive, would the Prime Directive even apply?

I can answer number 2: The Greek gods are aliens. Its been 3,000 years and we are still being influenced today by what they did. I would go further than this and say, ''is it really that believable that these aliens remained in Greece?'' The entire early history of Star Trek is the plot of Stargate and it always amuses me how immediately that was forgotten by the writers.

Do they have to? Like in "Who Watches the Watchers", the "outsiders" aka Enterprise didn't stay very long, but their actions had a profound effect on the society. I am kind of curious if the Federation or the Vulcans or some other similar species that follows the Prime Directive draw the line at "entire planet" or "entire group" when it comes to exposure to aliens. Who would break the news to the other native populations from the planet that aliens exist? The group that made first contact, or the aliens themselves? Would that even be the same? Cause at a first look, they're not quite the same.

[Al-1701]

I think we also need to get to the root of what the re-education camps were the horror they were. Along with the grotesque approach to discipline, the attitude behind them was everything the natives did was inferior. They had to be broken of using their native languages and writing systems even though they are perfectly serviceable languages and writing systems, forced into a set of beliefs, and in general erase their culture.

There is a middle ground between cultural erasure and terrarium, but this episode wasn't interested in exploring it. Though, that's Voyager in a nutshell.

[name_here]

I think the plot with having Tom take piloting lessons makes sense. Not that learning the local traffic laws will ever be relevant to him again, but it's not a huge burden on the crew and a good way to maintain good relations with the locals by obeying their laws instead of high-handedly asserting diplomatic immunity, and a lot more straightforward than going through elaborate legal negotiations to impose some other punishment to satisfy them.

Plus it does give Tom an incentive to pay attention to local laws next time and not put them in this situation again, where the local punishment is more severe than boredom.

[Mabus]

I never understood how other aliens that arrive to the space station learn to fly ships "legally" in that area of space, or in any other high traffic locations. Do they have to manually learn how to fly? Do they receive a "traffic lane" software of sorts that gives them the traffic lanes they're supposed to follow?

Cause I doubt that if aliens would show up today we'd just let them to fly in our atmosphere any way they want, ICAO or FAA would force them at least to use Flightradar24 to avoid any air crashes.

[Al-1701]

If the station acts like an airport, Tom would've been informed of where the free to navigate space ends and what his flight path within the station's area would be to avoid crashing or disrupting traffic. He was just joyriding for the fun of it which would piss off any space traffic control and begs the question of why he would do it this late in the series. Seasons 1 or 2, but in Season 7 when he's learned how to be something resembling a responsible adult. It was a lazy way for him to be the right place to grab the scientists and blast the deflector.

[drewder]

There's a very interesting scifi argument there. The culture under the barrier CAN'T develop. It will be stuck like it is forever because it is unable to get the resources to move upward and outward. Which is an interesting variant of the Prime Directive.

Yup. Voyager wouldn't just be morally right, but compelled by the Prime Directive to take down that Ur-Quan Slave Shield.

Not really. Prime directive doesn't say that Starfleet must prevent unnatural interfere in a society's development just that they can't interfere themselves.

[CharlesPhipps]

Literally the reasoning that led to abducting children of indigenous cultures and re-education camps. Thanks for playing the game of genocide, you are the winner; you genocided first.

So you don't believe cultures can share technology without child abduction? Just checking here to the assumption that medicine and supplies are inherently destructive in your worldview and the idea of attempted cultural genocide.

[Riedquat]

I'm with Madner Kami. This barrier has hampered the development of the Ventu. By allowing the barrier to go back up has condemned to living in a terrarium. But, like many Star Trek episodes, Voyager will just head out and not have to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Chuck is right that the Ventu should've been asked what they wanted. They probably would like their territory respected, but I suspect being kept under a dome would be a non-starter.

That is my opinion regarding all of those ''beautiful'' Amazon tribes that fire arrows at helicopters. ''Ooh! What about their culture!'' someone always bleats.

So? What about their culture? They live in filth, they die of preventable diseases, they think a helicopter is a dragon. Whatever stories they have, or unique language they developed or god they worship will still be there if they are wearing jeans and have a Big Mac in their hand.

''Ooh! But what is so good about us?'' someone always bleats.

You mean, apart from our advanced medicine, plentiful food and water, instant communication, knowledge of the universe, warm clothes, housing that isn't made out of mud and twigs? The poorest Westerner lives a life infinitely better than anyone who is living at a cro magnon level of development no matter how much those of us spoiled by it like to moan. Fact is, the rest of us developed AWAY from how they live for a reason.

Rather arrogant that.

I'm with Chuck on the "ask them" part of it. If some remote tribe just acts hostile at any meeting then leave them alone, if they actively make contact then fine. But don't barge in saying "hey you filthy stinking disease-ridden savages, you must live like us! We know what's best for you!" In the mean time yay, access to new areas to mine, cover in concrete, burn down etc...

Handled well contact should be able to work well, but it rarely will be.

You can look around a lot of the world today and see people dressed the same way, living in cities with the same concrete blocks, with the same shops... Rather sad when things end up like that, rather good when it comes with things like medical improvements. You'd think an advanced society like the Federation would have some idea how to offer some of the latter without completely altering a society. Take medicine - for a stone age type society you don't need to give them a load of tech to make a big difference, the technology to make soap and some basic guidance on hygeine would make a massive difference.

[Nealithi]

I'm with Madner Kami. This barrier has hampered the development of the Ventu. By allowing the barrier to go back up has condemned to living in a terrarium. But, like many Star Trek episodes, Voyager will just head out and not have to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Chuck is right that the Ventu should've been asked what they wanted. They probably would like their territory respected, but I suspect being kept under a dome would be a non-starter.

That is my opinion regarding all of those ''beautiful'' Amazon tribes that fire arrows at helicopters. ''Ooh! What about their culture!'' someone always bleats.

So? What about their culture? They live in filth, they die of preventable diseases, they think a helicopter is a dragon. Whatever stories they have, or unique language they developed or god they worship will still be there if they are wearing jeans and have a Big Mac in their hand.

''Ooh! But what is so good about us?'' someone always bleats.

You mean, apart from our advanced medicine, plentiful food and water, instant communication, knowledge of the universe, warm clothes, housing that isn't made out of mud and twigs? The poorest Westerner lives a life infinitely better than anyone who is living at a cro magnon level of development no matter how much those of us spoiled by it like to moan. Fact is, the rest of us developed AWAY from how they live for a reason.

Rather arrogant that.

I'm with Chuck on the "ask them" part of it. If some remote tribe just acts hostile at any meeting then leave them alone, if they actively make contact then fine. But don't barge in saying "hey you filthy stinking disease-ridden savages, you must live like us! We know what's best for you!" In the mean time yay, access to new areas to mine, cover in concrete, burn down etc...

Handled well contact should be able to work well, but it rarely will be.

You can look around a lot of the world today and see people dressed the same way, living in cities with the same concrete blocks, with the same shops... Rather sad when things end up like that, rather good when it comes with things like medical improvements. You'd think an advanced society like the Federation would have some idea how to offer some of the latter without completely altering a society. Take medicine - for a stone age type society you don't need to give them a load of tech to make a big difference, the technology to make soap and some basic guidance on hygeine would make a massive difference.

Just a thing but Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

The better medicine, food, water are all not arrogant. They are blunt truth. The clothing and housing may be as not all of each would be good in a given environment.

So it can be honestly argued to be better materially. Yes we can ask the people. But seeing all the magical people show up. Will it be an educated or reasoned answer? I am not saying the people are stupid. But a primitive people may have an innocent ignorance.

Looking at these two threads I think this is a great example for the slippery slope of both the Prime Directive and the lack of it. How can you in good conscience stand aside and let a people just die when you can do something about it? Balanced against, how much can and should you do and for how long?