Star Trek: Strange new worlds

[McAvoy]

Voyager, as good as TNG? Maybe the poorer early seasons of TNG, at most.

I said, "Voyager, for instance, certainly wasn't as consistently good as TNG, but when they did hit the right marks it was pretty close."

Generally, Voyager was worse than TNG, often much worse (though I think the worst of Voyager is probably better than much of season 1 TNG), but some of the highlights were nearly as good or in a few cases as good as anything TNG had. For example, Blink of an Eye is probably not quite up there with the best of TNG's "pure sci-fi" corpus, but it's close. Living Witness is probably on the list of the best episodes from any of the series. Bride of Chaotica is absolutely as good as any of TNG's "comic relief" episodes. I actually think that Equinox part 2 is a bit of a let down, but part 1 is strong. I significantly differ with the episode in its conclusion, but Death Wish handles the philosophical debate of the issue about as well as Measure of a Man (the conclusion of which I also don't agree with, at least not entirely). I don't like Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy as much as many people, but it's widely considered quite good. I'd roughly put Message in a Bottle in the same sort of box as episodes like TNG's Timescape or The Next Phase, but better.

I don't think Voyager has anything to compare with Darmok. I don't think it has anything to compare to The Inner Light. Although a lot of people rate Scorpion very highly, I don't think it remotely compares to Best of Both Worlds or Redemption in terms of those really top tier two part episodes.

TNG was better, but Voyager was able to reach average TNG quality sometimes, and in a few cases even to come close to the best of TNG.

I can definitely agree with this. Voyager had alot of peaks and valleys in terms of quality whereas TNG from the third season onwards would see less valleys. At least until Season 7. Still had plenty of quality episodes even then.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I was more impressed with DS9 my second time around than I was with TNG my second time around. I also watched TNG from season 1-7 the second time instead of 3-7 then 1 and 2, and it was a bit more insufferable, though I understand the development of the narrative like twice as much having done it that way. DS9 is like a diesel truck.

[Lazerlike42]

I was more impressed with DS9 my second time around than I was with TNG my second time around. I also watched TNG from season 1-7 the second time instead of 3-7 then 1 and 2, and it was a bit more insufferable, though I understand the development of the narrative like twice as much having done it that way. DS9 is like a diesel truck.

I have long had the potentially unpopular opinion that of all the series, TNG has actually held up the worst over time. I don't mean that TNG is the worst series or that the passage of time has led me to see other series as overtaking it in quality. What I mean is that the way I see TNG today has lost more from the how good I thought it was when I watched it in the 90s than other series have compared to when I originally watched them.

I also think that while TNG's best episodes still feel as good as they did 30 years ago, it's merely strong and average episodes feel worse than they used to.

I think the biggest reason for this is that there is just something very distinctively 80s about TNG in a way that even TOS doesn't feel distinctively 60s. I love the 80s - it's my favorite decade - but there's nevertheless very much something distinctive and "not timeless" about it, and this vibe and aesthetic really shines through in TNG in a way that can often make the series feel pretty dated, even if it's still objectively better than most other Star Trek (I've always thought DS9 took the number one spot).

[clearspira]

I was more impressed with DS9 my second time around than I was with TNG my second time around. I also watched TNG from season 1-7 the second time instead of 3-7 then 1 and 2, and it was a bit more insufferable, though I understand the development of the narrative like twice as much having done it that way. DS9 is like a diesel truck.

I have long had the potentially unpopular opinion that of all the series, TNG has actually held up the worst over time. I don't mean that TNG is the worst series or that the passage of time has led me to see other series as overtaking it in quality. What I mean is that the way I see TNG today has lost more from the how good I thought it was when I watched it in the 90s than other series have compared to when I originally watched them.

I also think that while TNG's best episodes still feel as good as they did 30 years ago, it's merely strong and average episodes feel worse than they used to.

I think the biggest reason for this is that there is just something very distinctively 80s about TNG in a way that even TOS doesn't feel distinctively 60s. I love the 80s - it's my favorite decade - but there's nevertheless very much something distinctive and "not timeless" about it, and this vibe and aesthetic really shines through in TNG in a way that can often make the series feel pretty dated, even if it's still objectively better than most other Star Trek (I've always thought DS9 took the number one spot).

Oh f'sure. The thing is... TNG ''really'' looks 1980s nowadays. The beige walls and brown upholstery in particular look appalling to modern eyes. And then there are the outfits. There are some doozies to be found here, but those god damn shoulder pads on the Romulans take the cake. Your totalitarian fascist police state should not invoke laughter when you see them marching towards you. I think the only other Star Trek to age this badly when it comes to clothes is The Motion Picture where you have McCoy in his disco outfit and medallion.

One note on how I think DS9 has aged badly though is that there is a sympathetic terrorist as a main character who has unapologetically killed civilians. This is probably a topic for a thread of its own but i've always had the unfortunate feeling that Kira was at least partially born from the love of the IRA that many Americans had in the 1990s that was immediately washed away by 9/11.

[Lazerlike42]

One note on how I think DS9 has aged badly though is that there is a sympathetic terrorist as a main character who has unapologetically killed civilians. This is probably a topic for a thread of its own but i've always had the unfortunate feeling that Kira was at least partially born from the love of the IRA that many Americans had in the 1990s that was immediately washed away by 9/11.

I'm not so sure about this. I'm sure different people have different views of a character like this, but regardless of what any one person thinks of her character at the beginning of the series one of the main threads in Kira's character arc is her coming to terms with her past and coming to view things differently. It might be too strong to say her character thread is that she comes to "repent" of everything she did, but her's is definitely a story of redemption and growth.

[Lazerlike42]

Also, to be clear, that arc and characterization of Kira's as someone who is regretful and growing was something which was intended from the beginning. The original writer's bible for the show said this:

"She committed atrocities against them in the name of freedom, some of which bother her. But others in the Bajoran underground begin a new wave of terrorism and she is forced into a moral quandary about tracking them down and bringing them to justice. Former terrorists consider her a turncoat."

[McAvoy]

I was more impressed with DS9 my second time around than I was with TNG my second time around. I also watched TNG from season 1-7 the second time instead of 3-7 then 1 and 2, and it was a bit more insufferable, though I understand the development of the narrative like twice as much having done it that way. DS9 is like a diesel truck.

Out of all of the Trek series, I have rewatched DS9 the most. Pretty much almost all of the characters had strong arcs over the series. The only one I had a problem with was Bashir. I don't really like him until later in the series. Though at times he was still annoying but now with superpowers.

Jadzia was alright. She got better later on when they figured her out.

I do agree that TNG hasnt aged well since you can pretty much date it due to set designs and costumes. And the hair. Especially the early seasons.

[stryke]

Finally got round to watching this first season and I'm legit impressed. Not counting Those Old Scientists this is easily the best first Trek season in terms of being consistently good.

Next Gen was just bad with mere glimmers of what it could be and that was when it wasn't being shockingly offensive. DS9 again mere glimmers of what it could be with the one exception of the truly excellent Duet. Voyager getting better, but never better than a couple of good eps like State of Flux. Enterprise... oh no, so very much no. Discovery I heard enough to know I was not to be a fan so just didn't watch it. Picard had moments but ultimately just didn't work as well as it could have done. Lower Decks had a very, very strong ending to their first season, but man did they start so decidedly poorly.

SNW however didn't have a single dud which astounded me. It's like as I watched each episode waiting for the other shoe to drop wondering if that is even legal for Trek? Only miss for me was the energy beings one, and even that was no worse than basically fine.

Obviously not a popular take around here from a quick glance through parts of this thread, and there's clearly been enough things to find if you want to nitpick it apart until there is nothing left. For me though I'm seriously looking forward to see if they can keep this up season two. Even more so with the news they're getting to crossover with Lower Decks (whose s3 trailer looks fricking spectacular) like TNG did to big up DS9.

[Mindworm]

Voyager, as good as TNG? Maybe the poorer early seasons of TNG, at most.

I said, "Voyager, for instance, certainly wasn't as consistently good as TNG, but when they did hit the right marks it was pretty close."

Generally, Voyager was worse than TNG, often much worse (though I think the worst of Voyager is probably better than much of season 1 TNG), but some of the highlights were nearly as good or in a few cases as good as anything TNG had. For example, Blink of an Eye is probably not quite up there with the best of TNG's "pure sci-fi" corpus, but it's close. Living Witness is probably on the list of the best episodes from any of the series. Bride of Chaotica is absolutely as good as any of TNG's "comic relief" episodes. I actually think that Equinox part 2 is a bit of a let down, but part 1 is strong. I significantly differ with the episode in its conclusion, but Death Wish handles the philosophical debate of the issue about as well as Measure of a Man (the conclusion of which I also don't agree with, at least not entirely). I don't like Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy as much as many people, but it's widely considered quite good. I'd roughly put Message in a Bottle in the same sort of box as episodes like TNG's Timescape or The Next Phase, but better.

I don't think Voyager has anything to compare with Darmok. I don't think it has anything to compare to The Inner Light. Although a lot of people rate Scorpion very highly, I don't think it remotely compares to Best of Both Worlds or Redemption in terms of those really top tier two part episodes.

TNG was better, but Voyager was able to reach average TNG quality sometimes, and in a few cases even to come close to the best of TNG.

You mean the version of Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg* done with no competence and with some of the worst actors they could find? Yeah, that wouldn't fill the top of Season 1 Enterprise, never mind TNG.

*The plot was stolen 100% from his book except for that the Cheela (a truly alien civilisation) were replaced by a bunch of renaissance fayre wannabes.

[stryke]

Trek ripping off/borrowing/paying homage to (pick your prefference) previously published fiction is nothing new though. SNW did it recently with the kid on the Emperor's Golden Throne, and you can go
back to when TNG did it with Anne Rice with the ghost sexy times to the point people were convinced she was given a credit under another name to pay her off.

Then again I certainly wouldn't rate Blink of the Eye that highly for Voyager myself, even ignoring the ethical concerns, as the show really could be much, much better than that like with the mentioned Living Witness.

(Yes, I know the actual refference but the 40k nod amused me more)