Puss in Boots: The Last Wish: The Death Wolf Yet ANOTHER Example of How Kylo Ren Could Have Been Done Right

[Madner Kami]

Wait, when does Rey talk to another woman about ANYTHING in TLJ?

Huh?

Clearspira said she failed the Bechdel test because she only talks about men, but the test is talking to another woman about something other than a man. If I remember correctly she doesn't talk to another woman in that movie at all.

No she does, she talks with Leia at the end... About Luke, and what they'll do without him... Yeah the film really does fail the Bechdel Test. The few times she does talk about something other then the men in her life is her talking TO said men and how they can help her figure out her place in this story. And as soon as she's not relievent to the story of said men she's basically out of the rest of the film.

No seriously in the last half hour of the film she has a grand total of 5 minutes of screen time, 3 or 4 lines of dialogue and is only REALLY made out to be important once she's relevant to Kylo and Luke's conflict... Does Rey do ANYTHING for herself in this Trilogy?

She stays on Tatooine to wait for her parents, which is then followed by her getting taken off world more or less against her will. Then she's taken to Maz who tells her to take Luke's Lightsaber, then she's take by Kylo because she has something he wants. Then she goes to look for Luke to help with new found powers, then she sits around talking about Luke and Kylo without barely talking about herself. Then she goes from action scene to action scene in ROS because she was asked to stop Palpatine.

Rey's really a Pinball Protagonist in her a Trilogy that's suppose to be about her but where she goes and what she does is often dictated for her. We learn almost nothing about her and when we start to the films seem to almost get bored and switch over to anything else.

To use She-Ra yet again we learn a LOT about Adora and her choosing to stand with the Rebellion over the Horde was ultimately her own choice. Sure she was kinda swept up into events at the start but she took control of said events rather quickly and that's kinda the whole point of her arc that her future is her own.

Rey... is just kinda along for the ride. She's not so much a Mary Sue as she is a nothing. She gains powers and starts to master them in a short period of time... because the films don't want to deal with that part of her. It's ironic, her stated motive is her wanting to know what her place is in this story yet she doesn't really seem to have one. She's just a plot device for the writers to use and discard at the first opportunity.

Again, this is shown best during the 4th act of TLJ. She learns that her parents traded her for drinking money and left her and that she comes from nothing. This should break her but then she's out of the film and doesn't seem to be having any problem. She's happy, she's smiling, she's blowing up tie fighters and there's nothing wrong.

Why don't these films care about her. GOLDIE LOCKS has more depth and development in one movie then Rey does in her own Trilogy. What went wrong here?

One could almost say, that she was "guided" by the Force through her entire ordeal.

Obligatory: Kreia was right.

[stryke]

The Prequel hatedom seemed to only really take off post RLM if you ask me.

It was burning hotly well, well before that. See Spaced back in 2001 for just one example of how the more invested fanbase were coping with the fallout. How badly the actors of Jar Jar and young Anakin were treated for another.

RLM might have caused a resurgence combined with how much people were more online when they got big. I still don't think it was as bad though.

Now if we're talking the reevaluation as to why so many people view them a lot more positively these days that was absolutely due to the trinity that was the Clone Wars cartoon, r/PrequelMemes, and Lego Star Wars.

[Winter]

One could almost say, that she was "guided" by the Force through her entire ordeal.

Obligatory: Kreia was right.

I don't like that because it ignores one of the most important points about the nature of the Force and it's all summed up by this dialogue in A New Hope.

Obi-Wan: Remember a Jedi can feel the Force Flowing Though him.

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?

Obi-Wan: Partly, but it also obeys your commands.

The Force is not this one side relationship it's more complex then that. It has a will of it's own but those around it, regardless if they are a Force User or not, have a say in how things play out. One of the reasons I actually like the Prequel Trilogy is that the story of Anakin is actually a deconstruction and subversion of the Chosen One story.

While the Jedi do question the prophecy they often turn a blind eye to Anakin's Darker Nature likely because they have some faith in the Prophecy and just assume things will work out. They thus don't see the one that will help bring about their doom because they simply think that things are destined to go their way.

And in the Original Trilogy Obi-Wan is insistent that Luke HAS to confront and Kill Vader yet when Luke says he can't go through with it Obi-Wan simply drops the subject and doesn't try to force Luke to do something he feels he can't do (yet another reason him contemplating killing Kylo in his sleep is BS).

The message in both the Prequels and TOT is that there is no fate, we must make our own choices. Anakin didn't need to turn to the Dark Side he choose to do so for his own wants, the Jedi weren't destined to fall they fell because they were drawn into a trap and Luke wasn't destined to kill Vader he CHOOSE to try and redeem him.

By contrast TDST seems to be saying there is only destiny, we are but pawns in the game played by the Force and no one has any say in how events play out, history will repeat because the Force says so.

Funnily enough the theme of freewill in the Thrawn Trilogy and The Clone Wars is maintained as Luke has a vision of Mara killing him, or preparing to kill him and Mara believes it is her duty to kill Luke. Yet Mara chooses to save Luke, both to help her surrogate father Karrde, and because she comes to learn the truth of what the Emperor was.

Mara choose to help and befriend Luke because Luke once again choose to go "Screw what the Future says I'm going to make peace with this person who hates him because I am a Jedi and that's what we do". This btw is why I hate Luke's characterization in TLJ, he goes from "I am a Jedi and will do what is right" to "I REALLY didn't like the idea of my own Nephew going dark side and thought of killing him in his sleep because if it worked for Palpatine it might work for me."

[Madner Kami]

Obi-Wan: Remember a Jedi can feel the Force Flowing through him.

That's a wonderful metaphor, but the finer details behind it are neatly ignored. Of course the Force flows and just like with any flow, you can go with it or against it or perpendicular to it. But this will only lead you to where you want to go, if the current isn't particularly strong. If there is a stronger current, you will inevitably drift away from where you want to go. And if the current is strong, you'll go with the flow, whether you want it or not and end up whereever it decides to leave you stranded. That is the Force, imo.

[hammerofglass]

"The will of the Force" will always be congruent with "the needs of the plot". How subtle or overt that is will vary depending on who's writing a particular story; in the Old Republic games in particular it's in-universe common knowledge.

[clearspira]

''The Will of the Force'' AKA this generation's version of ''A Wizard Did It.''

Stop writing the script for them.

[hammerofglass]

''The Will of the Force'' AKA this generation's version of ''A Wizard Did It.''

Stop writing the script for them.

Actually fun fact, "The Will of the Force" predates "A Wizard Did It" by about six months. The Phantom Menace and the 1999 Simpsons Halloween special, respectively.

[Winter]

Obi-Wan: Remember a Jedi can feel the Force Flowing through him.

That's a wonderful metaphor, but the finer details behind it are neatly ignored. Of course the Force flows and just like with any flow, you can go with it or against it or perpendicular to it. But this will only lead you to where you want to go, if the current isn't particularly strong. If there is a stronger current, you will inevitably drift away from where you want to go. And if the current is strong, you'll go with the flow, whether you want it or not and end up whereever it decides to leave you stranded. That is the Force, imo.

You ignore the other part of that scene.

You mean it controls your actions?

Partly, but is also obeys your commands.

The Force is not a River, it's an Ocean in a Storm but that which is shaped by those around it. Jedi and Sith can sense and have the means to direct that flow but we see that events change outside of the Sith control. Consider the Ewoks, largely a unremarkable race, not as strong as other races and not as technologically advance yet they were the ones who helped turn the tide of the War. Why, because the came to see the Rebels as friends and came to their rescue. They didn't get visions or met a dead person who told them to help our heroes but because these people told them about what was going on and made them a part of their tribe.

Yes, Luke used the Force but ONLY to get them to not kill them and after that it was their own choice to help.

TDST doesn't do that, instead it keeps falling back on how the Force is shaping things and that the characters like Rey and others are just pawns in a repeating history that none of them have any power to shape.

To look to Puss in Boots 2, Puss' actions are shaped by his fear of Death, Death appears before Puss and scares him into retirement and to seek the Wish to regain his lost lives. But Death doesn't do this by possessing Puss, or using some form of magic alter his character, he meets Puss, comes close to killing him and Puss gets scared. That fear drives him to do what he does throughout the rest of the film. Rey has no such journey or motive.

She's told the Force has plans for her, she has no choice and things keep happening to get her to go where the plot needs her to be.

In A New Hope Luke choose to become a Jedi and join the Rebellion once his family was killed and before that he learned that his father was Jedi and wanted to follow in his father's footsteps. Luke could have just stayed on Tatooine but choose to go with Obi-Wan and become a Jedi. Rey was given no such choice.

[clearspira]

Obi-Wan: Remember a Jedi can feel the Force Flowing through him.

That's a wonderful metaphor, but the finer details behind it are neatly ignored. Of course the Force flows and just like with any flow, you can go with it or against it or perpendicular to it. But this will only lead you to where you want to go, if the current isn't particularly strong. If there is a stronger current, you will inevitably drift away from where you want to go. And if the current is strong, you'll go with the flow, whether you want it or not and end up whereever it decides to leave you stranded. That is the Force, imo.

You ignore the other part of that scene.

You mean it controls your actions?

Partly, but is also obeys your commands.

The Force is not a River, it's an Ocean in a Storm but that which is shaped by those around it. Jedi and Sith can sense and have the means to direct that flow but we see that events change outside of the Sith control. Consider the Ewoks, largely a unremarkable race, not as strong as other races and not as technologically advance yet they were the ones who helped turn the tide of the War. Why, because the came to see the Rebels as friends and came to their rescue. They didn't get visions or met a dead person who told them to help our heroes but because these people told them about what was going on and made them a part of their tribe.

Yes, Luke used the Force but ONLY to get them to not kill them and after that it was their own choice to help.

TDST doesn't do that, instead it keeps falling back on how the Force is shaping things and that the characters like Rey and others are just pawns in a repeating history that none of them have any power to shape.

To look to Puss in Boots 2, Puss' actions are shaped by his fear of Death, Death appears before Puss and scares him into retirement and to seek the Wish to regain his lost lives. But Death doesn't do this by possessing Puss, or using some form of magic alter his character, he meets Puss, comes close to killing him and Puss gets scared. That fear drives him to do what he does throughout the rest of the film. Rey has no such journey or motive.

She's told the Force has plans for her, she has no choice and things keep happening to get her to go where the plot needs her to be.

In A New Hope Luke choose to become a Jedi and join the Rebellion once his family was killed and before that he learned that his father was Jedi and wanted to follow in his father's footsteps. Luke could have just stayed on Tatooine but choose to go with Obi-Wan and become a Jedi. Rey was given no such choice.

What started off Rey's adventure? She chose to A) Help save BB-8 from bandits and B) Decided not to sell BB-8 for food which put her on the First Order's shit list. If she had chosen to let BB-8 get scrapped then there would have been no adventure. She would be sitting in her home eating space bread and wondering what all the fuss is about. It was all about her choice to do the right thing when it counted.

And this was not an easy choice either. For her, that armful of ration packs she was offered is probably more food than she has ever seen. We see beforehand that even a hover trailer worth of scrap is worth, like, five packs or something stupid like that. Its easy to be heroic when you live in comfort; its very different when you are a hungry desert nomad living day-to-day.

As an aside, this is one of my my biggest gripes with the Sequels: Rey's introduction is perfectly fine. I really like the scene where she is polishing some old scrap to sell and stares meaningfully across the room at an old lady doing exactly the same thing - she knows that she is wasting her life here waiting for her parents and is destined to become that old woman. And yes, it is rather silly that the Falcon is on Jakku and she can pilot it better than Han... but her imprinting on a father figure and desperately trying to impress him is sweet in a sad kind of way. You can tell that Rey is a lonely figure with no one in her life which is probably why she was hanging onto the fantasy of her parents returning for her.

And in retrospect, her parents being scum who sold her off for drinking money is more profound and meaningful than any of that Palpatine bullshit. Rey was wasting her life away waiting for scum. That is cutting, that would have hurt, and it could have meant something.

There we go. That is my minimal defence of the Sequels done. I have nothing else good to say about them whatsoever. They squandered what little potential they had.

[Madner Kami]

I'll agree in so far, that TFA had a good start. It's at around the time the Millenium Falcon comes in, that it turns sour. At latest, when Han's Cuthulhu-transport comes in. It's all downhill from there.