Fascism is Heroarchy

[MithrandirOlorin]

Heroism is always fighting for individual prosperity.

It's not actually, the Glory of the Individual Great Man is part of Heroarchy but it's also the Heroism of every individual soldier on the battle field who's individual may not be remembered. Your objections to this thesis are based on a limited understanding of what Hero means.

Webster's dictionary defines a hero as "a person who is admired for great or brave acts or fine qualities." They're admired, they're not forgotten. There's nothing essential about either blending in or being a soldier in modern consideration of a hero. Heroism in the scope of a battlefield does ring in classical depiction, but that's not necessarily pertinent.

In some Hero stories it's specifically treated as admirable to be forgotten. And I don't care about a dictionary definition written after Thomas Carlyle died.

What Heroarchy means is very similar to what Plato's definition of Timocracy was (not to be confused with Aristotle's very different definition).

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

And I don't care about a dictionary definition written after Thomas Carlyle died.

That's good and all, but I'm not too worried about that many people being convinced that being forgotten is some intrinsic feature of heroism, much less as to substantiate some bearing strait connection to Fascism.

I don't need the encyclopedia rendition to know that heroism is an innate title of honor ship exhibited by the individual, and not subject to public verification for validation. If a story depicts a forgotten hero, then the story itself survives the memory of the hero, itself being emblematic of the admiration in spite of it being a fictional account while the narrative account grants no light upon the subject.

Mussolini's Fascism was very conscious of capitalist directive while he himself is the cult of personality that emerges from the hero on the battlefield that becomes the figurehead of the state. You can watch those tales and make the assumption that it encourages the viewer to either support that cult of personality or devote their attention head first into support of the nation by selfless adherence. The latter however is problematic and not endorsed by a system with an established ruler and an economy encouraging competition against the interest of democracy. Off the battlefield heroism depicts benevolence and is not uncommonly sustained more by non-profit directives.

[MithrandirOlorin]

And I don't care about a dictionary definition written after Thomas Carlyle died.

That's good and all, but I'm not too worried about that many people being convinced that being forgotten is some intrinsic feature of heroism, much less as to substantiate some bearing strait connection to Fascism.

I don't need the encyclopedia rendition to know that heroism is an innate title of honor ship exhibited by the individual, and not subject to public verification for validation. If a story depicts a forgotten hero, then the story itself survives the memory of the hero, itself being emblematic of the admiration in spite of it being a fictional account while the narrative account grants no light upon the subject.

Mussolini's Fascism was very conscious of capitalist directive while he himself is the cult of personality that emerges from the hero on the battlefield that becomes the figurehead of the state. You can watch those tales and make the assumption that it encourages the viewer to either support that cult of personality or devote their attention head first into support of the nation by selfless adherence. The latter however is problematic and not endorsed by a system with an established ruler and an economy encouraging competition against the interest of democracy. Off the battlefield heroism depicts benevolence and is not uncommonly sustained more by non-profit directives.

My concern is when stories encourage people to see innate value in Sacrificing themselves even when the Sacrifice turns out to be for nothing.

This is BTW the gist of why the society depicted in Starship Troopers is viewed as Fascist.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Fascism isn’t regularly communicated for its precise philosophical meaning. People tend to stick more to historical context, or just rely on the charismatic writings of Mussolini.

My point isn’t to null your argument, just to point out that it’s very tricky to describe fascism without starting to describe notably toxic things in society that don’t necessarily substantiate fascism.

Edit. Upon reading your comment about starship troopers, I agree very much. But the issue of Fascistic tones in that movie is up for debate often.

[clearspira]

Fascism isn’t regularly communicated for its precise philosophical meaning. People tend to stick more to historical context, or just rely on the charismatic writings of Mussolini.

My point isn’t to null your argument, just to point out that it’s very tricky to describe fascism without starting to describe notably toxic things in society that don’t necessarily substantiate fascism.

Edit. Upon reading your comment about starship troopers, I agree very much. But the issue of Fascistic tones in that movie is up for debate often.

Why is it a debate that Starship Troopers is fascist when it is very deliberately so? The humans aren't the heroes. The bugs are. That is clear very, very, quickly. I do wonder if the reason why people are so adamant at trying to argue that the sky is green with this film is that a lot of it hits just slightly too close to home.

[clearspira]

And I don't care about a dictionary definition written after Thomas Carlyle died.

That's good and all, but I'm not too worried about that many people being convinced that being forgotten is some intrinsic feature of heroism, much less as to substantiate some bearing strait connection to Fascism.

I don't need the encyclopedia rendition to know that heroism is an innate title of honor ship exhibited by the individual, and not subject to public verification for validation. If a story depicts a forgotten hero, then the story itself survives the memory of the hero, itself being emblematic of the admiration in spite of it being a fictional account while the narrative account grants no light upon the subject.

Mussolini's Fascism was very conscious of capitalist directive while he himself is the cult of personality that emerges from the hero on the battlefield that becomes the figurehead of the state. You can watch those tales and make the assumption that it encourages the viewer to either support that cult of personality or devote their attention head first into support of the nation by selfless adherence. The latter however is problematic and not endorsed by a system with an established ruler and an economy encouraging competition against the interest of democracy. Off the battlefield heroism depicts benevolence and is not uncommonly sustained more by non-profit directives.

My concern is when stories encourage people to see innate value in Sacrificing themselves even when the Sacrifice turns out to be for nothing.

This is BTW the gist of why the society depicted in Starship Troopers is viewed as Fascist.

Sacrificing yourself to save others is the most morally upstanding thing it is possible for a mortal being to do. It is why you can find it as a theme in humanity's oldest stories dating back literally 4000 years.

It agree however that it can be readily and easily abused but not just by fascists. This is a queue of young British men happily signing up to go and fight in the trenches. So eager were they in fact that young boys skipped school and passed themselves off as men in the hope of going off to fight for their country. Its an image that sends chills down my body especially when you factor in that probably 99% of them never came home again.

[hammerofglass]

Since the original post already brought up Eco, here's his comment on the heroism thing which includes a major distinction. This is number 11 on the list part of the essay that people keep quoting out of context:

"In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Fascism isn’t regularly communicated for its precise philosophical meaning. People tend to stick more to historical context, or just rely on the charismatic writings of Mussolini.

My point isn’t to null your argument, just to point out that it’s very tricky to describe fascism without starting to describe notably toxic things in society that don’t necessarily substantiate fascism.

Edit. Upon reading your comment about starship troopers, I agree very much. But the issue of Fascistic tones in that movie is up for debate often.

Why is it a debate that Starship Troopers is fascist when it is very deliberately so? The humans aren't the heroes. The bugs are. That is clear very, very, quickly. I do wonder if the reason why people are so adamant at trying to argue that the sky is green with this film is that a lot of it hits just slightly too close to home.

Not a bad question. I suppose it is a bit of a bold position to take to show a fascist society in which there's no apples to apples oppressive conflict. I'd very much agree that the Bugs are closer to the Rebels in this case, but George Lucas was basing the Empire on the United States against Vietnam to a good extent.

One thing I'd denote about the movie's allegorical basis is that the depiction of your enemy as a subhuman alien (fitting quite aptly in American history), is rather apt for western consensus on fascist constructs.

I mean I guess, the right to vote being available to military officers is rather non-democratic imo, and that isn't a cultural misgiving as with early America's inconsistency with the constitution. Michael Ironside is teaching the kids in school that you gotta be in the army core to vote.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I wasn't referring to just the movie when I mentioned Starship Troopers

Since the original post already brought up Eco, here's his comment on the heroism thing which includes a major distinction. This is number 11 on the list part of the essay that people keep quoting out of context:

"In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

Eco mentioned the Cult of Heroism but as one of many points no one of which is required. It is my opinion that part is the whole of it, without that it's not Fascism even if all of Eco's other points apply.

Meanwhile people think the Prelapsarian Utopia is point it's Fascist even on it's own when in fact that applies to literally everything, every major Religion as well as the Marxist view of History.

[hammerofglass]

I wasn't referring to just the movie when I mentioned Starship Troopers

Since the original post already brought up Eco, here's his comment on the heroism thing which includes a major distinction. This is number 11 on the list part of the essay that people keep quoting out of context:

"In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

Eco mentioned the Cult of Heroism but as one of many points no one of which is required. It is my opinion that part is the whole of it, without that it's not Fascism even if all of Eco's other points apply.

Meanwhile people think the Prelapsarian Utopia is point it's Fascist even on it's own when in fact that applies to literally everything, every major Religion as well as the Marxist view of History.

Most modern fascist movements (restricting ourselves to self-identified fascists for the sake of this conversation) skip that one so clearly fascists themselves don't think it's that central.

Ideological consistency isn't exactly a priority for anti-intellectuals.