Dragon Ball Fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:31 am
they killed far more spirits then there were crew members of Equinox, they were not the many in this situation. and as I said before, they only said they had other problems, for all we know, Equinox was only in the shape she was in BECAUSE they started killing the Spirits and made them retaliate. or at least, things weren't as bad as they were letting on before that point. I mean, the first Spirit was accidentally killed during research. if their situation was that hopeless, they wouldn't have time for scientific study.
Did they? Cause as I recall one body got them like 10000 light years. So that's seven deaths to get them all the way. Been a while so I could be misremembering. I'll have to recheck the episode when I get a chance.
In any event the reason they were conducting research was the aliens gave off antimatter. Which would be pretty potentially useful for them. They weren't doing Voyager style "Hey let's look at the pretty cloud" research, but research that might actually be useful.
Dragon Ball Fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:31 am
they killed far more spirits then there were crew members of Equinox, they were not the many in this situation. and as I said before, they only said they had other problems, for all we know, Equinox was only in the shape she was in BECAUSE they started killing the Spirits and made them retaliate. or at least, things weren't as bad as they were letting on before that point. I mean, the first Spirit was accidentally killed during research. if their situation was that hopeless, they wouldn't have time for scientific study.
Did they? Cause as I recall one body got them like 10000 light years. So that's seven deaths to get them all the way. Been a while so I could be misremembering. I'll have to recheck the episode when I get a chance.
In any event the reason they were conducting research was the aliens gave off antimatter. Which would be pretty potentially useful for them. They weren't doing Voyager style "Hey let's look at the pretty cloud" research, but research that might actually be useful.
even if you're right, saving only 47 people does not justify what they did, it's different then what Sisko did or even what Spock did, in the latter, it was a matter of imminate death, not potential death.
The Equinox crew discovers that they can kill a Vulcan against its will to gain 1k LY toward home. So they murder seven unwilling Vulcans.
The utilitarian argument may be made (seven lives against forty seven). But this is clearly 100% outside of the moral and ethical guidelines demonstrated and espoused by the Federation and its members.
Yeah, I just think Janeway went way too overboard on it. Pretty sure the Federation wouldn't go for what she did to that one crewman by threatening to give him to the aliens unless he talked and then actually carrying out the threat. And then the way she gave the aliens the Equinox the way she did.
"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough."
-TR
One area I disagree with is that Bester looks out for his own kind. I mean, this may just be JMS' "trap-door approach" fouling things up with his original vision, since we know that Takashima was meant to be the Manchurian Candidate and not Talia, but regardless, as presented, you cannot claim the Psi Corps look out for their own when you effectively "death of personality" a member of your own organization. That's treated as the same as regular death, the person you were is wiped away and thus destroyed, replaced by another that is not you, and in this case, completely antithetical to everything Talia is and was.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:47 am
One area I disagree with is that Bester looks out for his own kind. I mean, this may just be JMS' "trap-door approach" fouling things up with his original vision, since we know that Takashima was meant to be the Manchurian Candidate and not Talia, but regardless, as presented, you cannot claim the Psi Corps look out for their own when you effectively "death of personality" a member of your own organization. That's treated as the same as regular death, the person you were is wiped away and thus destroyed, replaced by another that is not you, and in this case, completely antithetical to everything Talia is and was.
Was Bester ever mentioned as being in on that though? If not it would be like blaming Sheridan for things Earth Force did wrong, and was not part of.
Deledrius wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:37 pm
Replace nucleogenic lifeforms with Vulcans.
The Equinox crew discovers that they can kill a Vulcan against its will to gain 1k LY toward home. So they murder seven unwilling Vulcans.
The utilitarian argument may be made (seven lives against forty seven). But this is clearly 100% outside of the moral and ethical guidelines demonstrated and espoused by the Federation and its members.
Hmmm... Are these TOS/TNG Vulcans or more like the post-TNG Vulcans who aren't Tuvok?
Admiral X wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:35 am
Yeah, I just think Janeway went way too overboard on it. Pretty sure the Federation wouldn't go for what she did to that one crewman by threatening to give him to the aliens unless he talked and then actually carrying out the threat. And then the way she gave the aliens the Equinox the way she did.
Absolutely. This, if nothing else, should have seen her face a serious Court Martial upon returning home. Torturing a fellow officer for information and leaving them to die (he would have been killed if not saved by Chakotay) is beyond reason for a Starfleet Captain.
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:47 am
One area I disagree with is that Bester looks out for his own kind.
Easy. Talia was no longer of Bester's kind. One thing we see about Bester is that he has a very black & white tribalism regarding everyone, including teeps. If you're in any way a traitor or collaborator, you cease being part of the family and become an asset to be used the same as any other human or alien.
wile still reckless, I still maintain Janeway never intended for that Equinox crew member to be in any actual danger, she just overestimated her ability to chase the spirit off before it killed him.
@Deledrius The thing with Talia is that despite her conflicts, she was still loyal - at least until Season 2. Anything less is headcanon.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
