Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

[Formless One]

While we're on the subject of Nanoha, when my best friend first introduced me to it in 2012, I was very disturbed how the TSAB functions kind of like... ONI on steroids. Chrono basically admits that in the TSAB system, they have no qualms with locking nine-year-old girls up for hundreds of years... treating underage kids like full-blown adults. It's really questionable. It also feels like they were manipulating her to try and join. Fate gets probation, a minor, an extreme minor, while... Admiral Graham just "resigns." The TSAB just struck me as very corrupt and set in their ways, and it bothered me, right up until 2013 where I learned about the dub change line to Arf in Episode 5, and then that drew my criticism more, and still does, lol.

Of course without making this a subs VS dubs debate, because there is no way to get at a generalized answer over which is better, Nanoha's English dub is pretty universally agreed upon as inferior to the original. Its not just the voice acting that is better-- after all, this is the show that got both Nana Mizuki and Yuki Tamara into the voice acting business-- but there are those adaptation choices that weren't in the original because of course they weren't, this is an industry that used to try to pass off rice balls as jelly filled donuts or airbrush a gun out of a character's hand yet still have the scene play out like they were holding someone at gunpoint! Just to name two famous examples of bad adaptation choices. Hell, IIRC they didn't even manage to air Cardcaptor Sakura's episodes in the correct order back in the day, leaving audiences confused as hell.

As for the issue with Gil Grayham... well, the movie completely removed the character from the story, for better and for worse. Really, starting with Nanoha Vivid and the movies, it seems like the writer and producers tried making the TSAB feel more and more like Starfleet and less like your typical Japanese government bureaucracy, both because most people got that vibe from them in seasons 1 and 2, and because there was a backlash against adding more corruption in season 3 and the Force manga that is currently on indefinite hiatus. In Vivid, its clear that the average kid is actually treated like a kid even if they are a mage, and that most kids can't actually become involved with the organization until at least the age of 15 barring special circumstances. That's still young, but its no younger than Chrono is in season 1. Nanoha and a certain season 2 character were probably allowed to do as much as they did because they were both powerful, and good local contacts on a planet with few mages but lots of magical incidents. Fate and Nanoha for one seem insistent on making sure Vivio's childhood will be a lot more normal than their own.

Exactly. Don't behave their age. Nanoha doesn't look afraid by Arf's murder threat (when that's like one of childhood's greatest fears, probably a primal instinctive holdover from our tribal days), and the TSAB wants to lock up kids under ten for hundreds of years. It's horrifying. I can see why in some material like BetrayerS they painted the TSAB as a corrupt force. I always felt that way.

Clearly Nanoha doesn't respond to Arf's threats because badassery runs in the family. More seriously, at that point in the story she's already faced deadly threats, some of which actually did try to eat her, and she fought them off sucessfully. Nothing instills confidence better than knowing for a fact that you are a badass.

I don't know if the movie retained the mention of the specific prison sentence (it could have been cut for time and relevance), but two things. First, we see how dangerous the Jewel Seeds are, and there are absolutely real world governments that would prosecute a child as an adult under certain circumstances. Secondly, for the most part the crew of Arthra actually come off as very chill and friendly, and quick to side with Fate when they learn why she acts. You know who doesn't come off that way? Chrono. He's the one who brings up the penalties Fate and her mother could face, he's the one who talks about how serious the situation with the Jewel Seeds is, and he even implies that Nanoha and Yuuno's actions could potentially get them in trouble. Then Lindy, his mother and superior officer, promptly tells Nanoha and Yuuno to not worry about it and even invites them to continue aiding their efforts, much to Chrono's chagrin.

I think your impression of the TSAB (at least in season 1) is largely coming from him, and its not supposed to be indicative of the normal attitudes of Bureau members. From my understanding, he and Lindy are supposed to form a comedy bit together, and most westerners don't get it not only because its an unfamiliar bit, but also because LIndy is supposed to be seen as eccentric, but breaks norms we aren't familiar with. I was certainly confused when I first saw Nanoha gasp at how Lindy drinks tea. Apparently you aren't supposed to add sugar or creamer to green tea in Japan, but how would an American know that? Or worse, a Brit? The point of the joke is that she's a weeabo trying too hard to pass herself off as Japanese, and failing. That's why in the movies, they add a metric crap-ton more Japanese kitsch to her office just to make the point clear that no one who was genuinely born in Japan would collect all this stuff. Anyway, Chrono is supposed to be her straight man, but like all things in Japanese comedy, they take it to an extreme. Whereas he broods like Batman and uses overt intimidation to get people to take him seriously (whether because of his age, or because its in his job description), she's the ultimate authority figure on the ship and doesn't need to resort to that kind of behavior. She just needs to remind them that her title is Admiral Harlowan, and they toe the line. A boss in Japan can get away with a bit of eccentricity so long as they get jobs done effectively. Or at least, that's the premise of the comedy bit.

And even then, even with Chrono being contractually obligated to act like a dick for the sake of a comedy routine, at the end of the story its quite clear that not even he really wants to see Fate suffer the consequences of her mother's crimes; which is confirmed in season 2 when he acts as Fate's legal counsel.

So is the movie more canon?

Its like Gundam with its multiple timelines, but since not everyone will be familiar with the concept, think instead of Star Trek and the Kelvin timeline. Its like that, but there is no time travel justification explaining why there are multiple timelines. There just are. There is some weirdness people will often bring up (and did in this thread IIRC) about the first two movies being in-universe movies, but its never relevant and they make it clear that despite this, the movies are their own timeline that has crossed over with the video game timeline on one occasion (although whether this is canonical to the movie timeline is debatable given the events of movie 3 and 4).

I do know in the movie, Yuuno was shoved to the side. The poor bastard. Me and my friend are planning a MEGA-CROSSOVER, shoving every series we know of into it, and one thing we intend to do is show off the fandom's dream of NanoFate as a couple, and they are EVIL. They kidnapped their world's Yuuno and tortured him, and the protagonist Fate and Nanoha find him, and unleash hell on them.

So... you want people to think of you as petty, and deliberately taint the perception of the Yuuno/Nanoha ship more than it already is?

What is it with fans of Yuuno/Nanoha that they can't seem to advocate their ship without acting like dicks? Because that seems like the real reason no one likes the Yuuno/Nanoha ship. That, and its cliche for anime of the time Nanoha came out even remembering that Nanoha and Yuuno are just 9 years old. You really have to stop and realize how novel it was at the time for the main character to end up in a completely understated, realistic lesbian relationship in 2007 when season 3 came out and we saw Nanoha and Fate sleeping in the same bed together. Hell, as The Legend of Korra shows, you still can't show that kind of thing on American television, apparently.

Let people have their fun, and they will let you have yours.

[Ikiry0]

I mean, to be fair, the third season corruption fits fine into Magical Girl Starfleet (My favourite description of the nanoha franchise). It's a Section 31 plot tumour.

[Formless One]

I mean, to be fair, the third season corruption fits fine into Magical Girl Starfleet (My favourite description of the nanoha franchise). It's a Section 31 plot tumour.

Well, I see two problems with the comparison. Problem one is the role Section 31 fits into relative to the role of the corrupt conspiracy in season 3 of Nanoha. Section 31 fully endorses the utopian ideals of the Federation because of the paradise they have successfully transformed Earth into (and presumably many other planets). They have always existed in that paradise, but they admit to working outside of the framework of Starfleet, the peacekeepers of that paradise. The only thing that ties them back to legitimate authority is one clause in a piece of paper (in fact, the Federation charter probably isn't even written on paper, but anyway). On the other hand, in Nanoha StrikerS the conspiracy is headed by the literal founders of the TSAB. Somehow they manage to live all the way until the present, subverting laws they themselves wrote. And for what? The show doesn't give a satisfactory answer, because in truth the three were just backstory for a corrupt general who has no magic except the ability to bore you to death, and another villain who is literally just a mad scientist whose own minions don't buy his motive. Hell, the three founders of the conspiracy get murdered near the end of the story without ever being revealed to the protagonists. That's how pointless they were. But their very existence makes the whole organization seem pointlessly sinister. In contrast, Section 31 drives multiple plot points in DS9 and we only see them through the perspective of a main character, Dr. Bashir. Their existence is sinister, but can be divorced entirely from Starfleet and even the Federation. They don't undermine the ideals of the show, they bring those ideals into focus. Like a good villain should.

I would say a better comparison would be between Gil Grayham from season 2 and Admiral Pressman from TNG. Although Gil's motives might be even better compared to Commodore Decker from TOS. There is a reason I say that removing him from the story in the films is both a good and bad thing.

[Ikiry0]

Oh, the focus there should have been on the 'plot tumour' part. I'm...less than happy with how 31 keeps getting retconned into more and more important things, further and further back into the Federation's history, with more and more real power.

[Formless One]

Oh, the focus there should have been on the 'plot tumour' part. I'm...less than happy with how 31 keeps getting retconned into more and more important things, further and further back into the Federation's history, with more and more real power.

Oh, I see what you are saying. Though I disagree, on account that they have always been a retcon, and the Beta canon shows how that retcon could be used to explain why we see so many crazy and corrupt admirals over the years despite being assured constantly that Starfleet is made up of the best of the best. But then again, this isn't a Star Trek thread, so another time perhaps. But yes, from what I have heard of it, Nanoha Force appears to have continued the theme, even though it didn't make sense to when the writer had previously established that the Bureau was trying its best to purge the ranks of Enforcers and officers of such corruption (made easier when the source of the problem has literally been knifed to death). So, definitely a plot tumor, though not to the level of being a Voodoo Shark I think. Thank god for indefinite hiatus! And for a writer who, for all his mistakes, actually does seem to learn and grow over time.

[Ikiry0]

Force made me...annoyed. Like, some ideas were not terrible and I feel like 'Having a series that doesn't have to 100% focus on Nanoha herself' is a good thing to help the setting (Which has had issues making the transition that way). A lot however, not so much.

Mind you, I liked StrikerS more than most. A big issue with it for me was that...weirdly, Nanoha parts. The need to keep ALL the (Female) characters notable in StrikerS hurt the ability to actually tell its own story and develop its own enemies to a good degree. If they'd narrowed it down to just, say, 2 previous characters training the new ones (With some minor cameos otherwise) I think it would have helped the pacing immensely. It would have given more time to give proper character stuff to the bad guys, to establish them in the same sort of way As managed with fewer episodes. Too many cooks spoiled the broth.

[Kendrakirai]

Ahhhh, Nanoha! The origin of the reason the word ‘befriend’ has become to also mean “blow the ever-loving **** out of from orbit”!

(Here’s a spoiler for folks who wish to know what I mean)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SBArXz3cWos

https://img2.gelbooru.com//images/f6/48/f648eaa2be7a6d52b874fdeb2efc1aec.png

(Weird those aren’t parsing even with the url and YouTube tags...)

ANYWAY though! The first three episodes or so are kind of there to just....set the stage. You already see that they’re skipping the rigmarole of the magical girl thing by excising the chants and transformation sequences (well, you can if you watch the episodes, Chuck skipped them...probably for the best, as they don’t have the Sailor Moon “it’s just a silhouette” thing going on...)., and it’s only going to become less and less ISO Standard Magical Girl in coming episodes.

Incidentally, RE Nanoha being technically a spin-off, it’s based, loosely, on a silly little side story where Nanoha becomes a traditional magical girl.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/nanoha/images/7/7f/Lyrical_Toy_Box.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110522095614 observe the differences, including a different familiar!)

It would appear that a lot of people rather enjoyed it and Nanoha herself though, as only three years later, she had her own anime series, while the originating series, Triangle Heart, has basically completely vanished from all but the memory of nerds like us. It’s not even an attempt to pretend it never happened, Triangle Heart was just that average.

[Yukaphile]

I mean, I still take issues with Season 1. As I said, the whole Fate thing rubs me the wrong way, prosecuting a child under 10 to be in jail for hundreds of years. Still seems like overblown punishment, and a recruitment attempt. And as I had said, Arf never even frickin' apologizes when she comes over to our side. At least not in the sub. The dub tried to make it look that way. Hell, to me, A's is where the series really picks up.

[Kendrakirai]

I mean, I still take issues with Season 1. As I said, the whole Fate thing rubs me the wrong way, prosecuting a child under 10 to be in jail for hundreds of years. Still seems like overblown punishment, and a recruitment attempt. And as I had said, Arf never even frickin' apologizes when she comes over to our side. At least not in the sub. The dub tried to make it look that way. Hell, to me, A's is where the series really picks up.

I mean, when your crimes extend into assisting in the attempted destruction of at least one inhabited planet and probably countless others, via what amounts to magical nukes and the destabilization of space-time itself, even with extenuating circumstances, I think that’s around the time you might get tried as an adult.

And as will be stated much later, Fate and Nanoha are, even during the first season, S ranked mages, even at *nine*, and both have Intelligent Devices. I’d be pretty shocked if you didn’t need a license for those things!

Also, as stated earlier, Chrono is just a way-too-serious little boy being comedically hardass, as well as being ‘bad cop’ in him and his mothers good cop/bad cop routine.

As for Arf, Nanoha’s way tougher than you’re giving her credit for, *and* knows Arf was just trying to help and protect Fate.

Also, yes, A’s is better, but just skipping the first part is ridiculous. Especially when it comes to reviews. You may as well just review the Freeza Saga of Dragonball Z and skip the Saiyan saga.

[Yukaphile]

She was being manipulated by Precia, remember. And seemed to take specific care not to kill Nanoha. So yeah, I'm calling bullshit.

Yeah, even my best friend doesn't like Chrono, lol.

"Help out and protect" your master does not equate to cannibalism.

I'm not saying skip the first part, mind you. Just I take issues with its presentation.