The Star Wars Sequels Erased?

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Nope. We the viewer are supposed to agree with Holdo - its bad writing on Rian and Kathy's part that we don't. Why do you think she gets The Triumphant Sacrifice?

I'mma side more with user Makeshift Python on this one.

Correct. I've read fan suggestions that it should have been Ackbar in the role of Holdo, but that wouldn't have worked at all because we already have a familiarity with him in ROTJ, so he's established on screen as a hero. Holdo being an unknown quantity brings more conflict. You don't know for sure if Holdo really is doing things in everyone's best interest until Leia wakes up from her coma and sets shit straight.

I mean, this whole "subverting expectations"-thing is the whole theme of Episode 8.
We think that we can trust Poe, we think , we can't trust Holdo, we think we could trust Benicio Del Torro's character, we don't know, if we can trust Luke as that great of a mentor, we think that KyloBen is your typical good-guy-turned-villain and we think that Snoke is this Palpatine-like overlord - and all of those expectations are not met.
That's not a flaw in the script, that's the feature of it.

And it's very á propos in these times.
Chuck loves to point out, that Sci-Fi is about the human condition - and nothing describes this better than Episode 8.

People, whom we were sure of, would be bad guys, turn out to be good guys and vice versa. And this uncertainty is something, that is palpable during the whole decade we were living in, when the new Star Wars was released.

[clearspira]

Nope. We the viewer are supposed to agree with Holdo - its bad writing on Rian and Kathy's part that we don't. Why do you think she gets The Triumphant Sacrifice?

I'mma side more with user Makeshift Python on this one.

Correct. I've read fan suggestions that it should have been Ackbar in the role of Holdo, but that wouldn't have worked at all because we already have a familiarity with him in ROTJ, so he's established on screen as a hero. Holdo being an unknown quantity brings more conflict. You don't know for sure if Holdo really is doing things in everyone's best interest until Leia wakes up from her coma and sets shit straight.

I mean, this whole "subverting expectations"-thing is the whole theme of Episode 8.
We think that we can trust Poe, we think , we can't trust Holdo, we think we could trust Benicio Del Torro's character, we don't know, if we can trust Luke as that great of a mentor, we think that KyloBen is your typical good-guy-turned-villain and we think that Snoke is this Palpatine-like overlord - and all of those expectations are not met.
That's not a flaw in the script, that's the feature of it.

And it's very á propos in these times.
Chuck loves to point out, that Sci-Fi is about the human condition - and nothing describes this better than Episode 8.

People, whom we were sure of, would be bad guys, turn out to be good guys and vice versa. And this uncertainty is something, that is palpable during the whole decade we were living in, when the new Star Wars was released.

Making a star wars film for "the decade we are living in" was one of their biggest mistakes. This franchise thrives on nostalgia. That's why TFA is a flat out copy of ANH, that's why Solo and Rogue One are prequels - they know this, or at least Abrams does.

And in retrospect regarding subverting expectations, look at TLOU 2 that has made the exact same mistake. Fans do not want that. They want happy endings, with the good guys good and the bad guys bad until they redeem themselves or are killed by the good guys. That is how fiction has been written since the days of the Greeks and it works.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Nope. We the viewer are supposed to agree with Holdo - its bad writing on Rian and Kathy's part that we don't. Why do you think she gets The Triumphant Sacrifice?

I'mma side more with user Makeshift Python on this one.

Correct. I've read fan suggestions that it should have been Ackbar in the role of Holdo, but that wouldn't have worked at all because we already have a familiarity with him in ROTJ, so he's established on screen as a hero. Holdo being an unknown quantity brings more conflict. You don't know for sure if Holdo really is doing things in everyone's best interest until Leia wakes up from her coma and sets shit straight.

I mean, this whole "subverting expectations"-thing is the whole theme of Episode 8.
We think that we can trust Poe, we think , we can't trust Holdo, we think we could trust Benicio Del Torro's character, we don't know, if we can trust Luke as that great of a mentor, we think that KyloBen is your typical good-guy-turned-villain and we think that Snoke is this Palpatine-like overlord - and all of those expectations are not met.
That's not a flaw in the script, that's the feature of it.

And it's very á propos in these times.
Chuck loves to point out, that Sci-Fi is about the human condition - and nothing describes this better than Episode 8.

People, whom we were sure of, would be bad guys, turn out to be good guys and vice versa. And this uncertainty is something, that is palpable during the whole decade we were living in, when the new Star Wars was released.

Making a star wars film for "the decade we are living in" was one of their biggest mistakes. This franchise thrives on nostalgia. That's why TFA is a flat out copy of ANH, that's why Solo and Rogue One are prequels - they know this, or at least Abrams does.

And in retrospect regarding subverting expectations, look at TLOU 2 that has made the exact same mistake. Fans do not want that. They want happy endings, with the good guys good and the bad guys bad until they redeem themselves or are killed by the good guys. That is how fiction has been written since the days of the Greeks and it works.

So, basically, the majority doesn't want to take risks in your sources of entertainment. Got it - but then, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, stop complaining, if you get your rehashes and rehashes and rehashes.

Then you can get your "bad guy gets killed by good guy" "until Judgment Day and trumpets sound" - as Hector Barbossa once put it. You can get exactly that - but, like I said, then don't complain, that "Hollywood doesn't get new ideas".

[Makeshift Python]

Being film #8, I admire a film attempting to take some risks. That's more exciting for me. In an earlier film, the side mission that Finn and Rose embark on might have actually worked, just by the skin of their teeth, much like any of the other hairbrained quests we've seen in past episodes. They'd manage to shut down the lightspeed tracker, escape the ship, make it to the remaining Resistance ships and then fly off to safety. But that's not what TLJ is about. Instead it's about devastating failure and how we cope with it and survive.

YODA: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. But weakness, folly, failure, also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is.

To suggest that Star Wars shouldn't feature characters experiencing defeat goes against the whole point of stories featured in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and REVENGE OF THE SITH. Lucas was not shy to feature our characters reach a low point, and felt Rian Johnson honored that with THE LAST JEDI showing that even when whittled down to a small group by the end there's still the hope that will keep the heroes persistent.

[clearspira]

Nope. We the viewer are supposed to agree with Holdo - its bad writing on Rian and Kathy's part that we don't. Why do you think she gets The Triumphant Sacrifice?

I'mma side more with user Makeshift Python on this one.

Correct. I've read fan suggestions that it should have been Ackbar in the role of Holdo, but that wouldn't have worked at all because we already have a familiarity with him in ROTJ, so he's established on screen as a hero. Holdo being an unknown quantity brings more conflict. You don't know for sure if Holdo really is doing things in everyone's best interest until Leia wakes up from her coma and sets shit straight.

I mean, this whole "subverting expectations"-thing is the whole theme of Episode 8.
We think that we can trust Poe, we think , we can't trust Holdo, we think we could trust Benicio Del Torro's character, we don't know, if we can trust Luke as that great of a mentor, we think that KyloBen is your typical good-guy-turned-villain and we think that Snoke is this Palpatine-like overlord - and all of those expectations are not met.
That's not a flaw in the script, that's the feature of it.

And it's very á propos in these times.
Chuck loves to point out, that Sci-Fi is about the human condition - and nothing describes this better than Episode 8.

People, whom we were sure of, would be bad guys, turn out to be good guys and vice versa. And this uncertainty is something, that is palpable during the whole decade we were living in, when the new Star Wars was released.

Making a star wars film for "the decade we are living in" was one of their biggest mistakes. This franchise thrives on nostalgia. That's why TFA is a flat out copy of ANH, that's why Solo and Rogue One are prequels - they know this, or at least Abrams does.

And in retrospect regarding subverting expectations, look at TLOU 2 that has made the exact same mistake. Fans do not want that. They want happy endings, with the good guys good and the bad guys bad until they redeem themselves or are killed by the good guys. That is how fiction has been written since the days of the Greeks and it works.

So, basically, the majority doesn't want to take risks in your sources of entertainment. Got it - but then, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, stop complaining, if you get your rehashes and rehashes and rehashes.

Then you can get your "bad guy gets killed by good guy" "until Judgment Day and trumpets sound" - as Hector Barbossa once put it. You can get exactly that - but, like I said, then don't complain, that "Hollywood doesn't get new ideas".

The truth is the truth. Show me evidence that the majority of the viewing public doesn't want exactly the same thing over and over again AKA the Marvel formula.

[phantom000]

The truth is the truth. Show me evidence that the majority of the viewing public doesn't want exactly the same thing over and over again AKA the Marvel formula.

If that were the case wouldn't every single MCU film always make roughly the same amount because it would always be the same people coming back again and again?

And what about the Terminator franchise? They have been making less and less money ever since 3, despite trying very hard to do the same thing over and over.

[Link8909]

Being film #8, I admire a film attempting to take some risks. That's more exciting for me. In an earlier film, the side mission that Finn and Rose embark on might have actually worked, just by the skin of their teeth, much like any of the other hairbrained quests we've seen in past episodes. They'd manage to shut down the lightspeed tracker, escape the ship, make it to the remaining Resistance ships and then fly off to safety. But that's not what TLJ is about. Instead it's about devastating failure and how we cope with it and survive.

YODA: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. But weakness, folly, failure, also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is.

To suggest that Star Wars shouldn't feature characters experiencing defeat goes against the whole point of stories featured in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and REVENGE OF THE SITH. Lucas was not shy to feature our characters reach a low point, and felt Rian Johnson honored that with THE LAST JEDI showing that even when whittled down to a small group by the end there's still the hope that will keep the heroes persistent.

Indeed, plus because of the Resistance losing in The Last Jedi makes the rise and victory in The Rise of Skywalker all the more satisficing, that fleet made of individual ships from across the galaxy lead by Lando Calrissian, the cavalry coming to the rescue with John Williams classic score playing is amazing.

[Link8909]

The truth is the truth. Show me evidence that the majority of the viewing public doesn't want exactly the same thing over and over again AKA the Marvel formula.

If that were the case wouldn't every single MCU film always make roughly the same amount because it would always be the same people coming back again and again?

And what about the Terminator franchise? They have been making less and less money ever since 3, despite trying very hard to do the same thing over and over.

Honestly I never really saw there being a strict formula to Marvel Films, because each hero is different in who they are and what their powers are, the stories vary in different ways, Captain America The First Avenger is very much like Captain America's old comics, him going and kicking some Nazi ass, very adventurous and very patriotic, while The Winter Soldier and Civil War are more spy thrillers, Ant-Man's films are comedy's with clever uses of shrinking Tec, Doctor Strange has magic with some clever usage of bending realty and psychedelic imagery that makes it one of my personal favorite Marvel films, The Guardians of the Galaxy films cast have really great chemistry that make for great interactions and are fantastic comedy's, and Black Panther story delves into some very serious issues that make it one of the greats, honestly I could go on.

[McAvoy]

The way I looked at with Holdo withholding information from Poe.

1. Holdo was withholding information from Poe because she is of higher rank and he is just a pilot. A hot headed one at that. The whole thing could have been written a bit differently I think to reflect that if it is true.

And how would you've written it? Now - here - is your chance to show, that you can do that.

2. The Feminist Agenda. It's a play on man not trusting a woman to lead. That a woman couldn't be competent to lead without a man. So they shoot it down. Man is wrong and the woman was right all along. This is the more simplistic way of explaining it for me. I didn't want to truly dive into the SJW aspects others have done about this.

Yeah - that's kinda bullshit.
If Holdo would've been a man, too, the whole scenario wouldn't have played different.
Poe is a hothead, Holdo is still in command and both don't know, if they could trust each other.

3. Subverting Expectations. Poe is an established character. Holdo isn't. Poe is a hot headed but skilled pilot. It plays out a bit like how you would expect. Poe would end up being right in the end and all is forgiven. Instead, Poe is shot down and turned out he was wrong the entire time.

There is nothing wrong with a little subversion of expectation.

I think the problem is that Poe being demoted and less trusted was the infamous bomber scene. It set him up as reckless and willing to spend lives. The trouble is the bombers themselves were ridiculous. They were slow by 2001 standards. Let alone something in Star Wars. Because the bomber sequence was off putting the demotion felt a bit weak. And Holdo came off as condescending and arrogant instead of putting Poe in his place for his screw up. Specifically, note that an angry officer scowls. Even Janeway will look pissed when dressing down another officer. Holdo looked amused to be taking him down a peg.

Actually, they set him up as hot-headed and as someone, who does, what he believes, is right. Not "willing to spend lives" - plus: The rest of the Bomber-Fleet could've unanimously decided to say "no" , if that would've been an order. Remember? "This is not a military, this is the resistance", as Clearspira put it.

What put you off concerning the bomber sequence? They were "slow"? Well, they had bombs on board, what do you expect? High-speed chases, which might've destabilized the bombs?

"Holdo came of as condescending and arrogant"? Good - exactly how she should've come across. Remember: there is a "we potentially have a traitor in our midst"-plot going on. So of course the new person is mistrusted.

Yep, and all of this is compounded by the fact that the battle against Death Star 3 happened THE DAY BEFORE. This plot might have worked 24 hrs ago. Luke and Han got a medal when they did it, Poe got accused of being untrustworthy?

Poe did a hotheaded thing and that hurt the rebellion. Sure, the Bomb-Squad could've decided to say "no", so they were probably on board with it, but I'm sure that "getting killed" was not their plan. So - of course: Demotion it is.

1. Which is why I said 'could have' been written better. I am not writer. Maybe it could have been written better, maybe not. The point is that if that is what they were going for, it wasn't that clear. Yes the slow as hell bomber scene did ruin that due to the fact it was a ridiculous scene. Bombers moving that slow is ridiculous. That's not even touching on the bombs dropping like there is a strong gravity like a planet.

2. It's not something I particularly subscribe to. But there are scene breakdowns on YouTube that have done some convincing arguments about it. Not saying they are right and not saying they are wrong.

And yes if Holdo was a man, it could have easily been played differently. Or maybe it could have played the same. You don't know that.

3. Subverting expectations works when it is done right. If you constantly do it throughout a movie, you no longer subvert expectations because people now expect it to happen.

[clearspira]

The truth is the truth. Show me evidence that the majority of the viewing public doesn't want exactly the same thing over and over again AKA the Marvel formula.

If that were the case wouldn't every single MCU film always make roughly the same amount because it would always be the same people coming back again and again?

And what about the Terminator franchise? They have been making less and less money ever since 3, despite trying very hard to do the same thing over and over.

The Terminator franchise has the exact same problem that the Predator franchise has: they are Arnold Schwarzenegger films. By which I mean, ''no one who went to see Terminator or Predator was there to see the Terminator or the Predator, they were there to see Arnie.''

The moment the Terminator and Predator franchises tried to be actually about their title characters, they died stone dead.

''Ah!'' I hear you cry. ''What about those last two piece of shit Terminator films that had Arnie in it? Surely that should have done great if what you say is true!''
And my counter to that is that they are NOT Arnold Schwarzenegger films. They are feminist driven pieces that tried to make Sarah Connor the lead, not Arnie. He is a secondary character at best and many knew it. Not to mention the fact that his star power is now mostly in the toilet compared to the 1980s and 1990s.